Fifth Wheels By Keystone For 1500

dhay13 · Feb 13, 2024

Step-father had a 2017 1500 Laramie Longhorn and towed about a 10,000lb 5th wheel. It was so miserable that after 3 or 4 trips they sold the camper and quit camping. RV dealer told him his truck would be fine.

ramffml · Feb 13, 2024

CanRebel said:
True.

But, what if it's not 20% ?

As example, the 1500 5th versions of Thor, say it's 10%. They have some that go by 20%, and some that go by 25%(very heavy ones even higher)
That is how they designed and material used.

We aren't talking about things 20-30 years ago.

I'm not going to lie and say I've investigated every model. But you will quickly find when you start digging into it that even the "half ton" towables aren't. The only real exception I've seen is the Escape that keeps getting dragged out in these discussions as if it single handedly invalidates the argument.

You have a rebel "with a bunch of options". What's your payload, 1400 pounds? You weigh 200? Add a 5w hitch so now you have 1150 pounds left. I don't see the math working out in your favour.

Riccochet · Feb 13, 2024

It's not a "what if" it's an industry standard. 5th wheels are industry standard to be 20% pin weight on average. The dry pin weight in meaningless. Ignore that number. The storage area is always up front, where the majority of your weight goes. Plus batteries, propane, anything else you put in the generator compartment. And if it's a generator then add that weight as well.

It's different for a toy hauler. But we're not talking about toy haulers. Your average 5th wheel is going to have 20% of GVWR be pin weight. If you have a 10,000 lb 5th wheel expect 2000 lbs to be pin weight. Minimum.

There are outliers in the industry, but they're not the norm. And you are 100% making compromises on structure and features to get there.

nlambert182 · Feb 14, 2024

CanRebel said:
I didn't say your math was wrong. I said you are playing with the numbers.

It's as bad as marketing, you claim RV manufactures are doing by making a RV for 1500's.

You took the highest possible number and claimed 1500 can't do it! Look at the payload. Sure would be, if you filled the trailer to MAX.

It's no wonder @crash68 posts that pic of Big Rig pulling tiny 4 foot trailer.

*sigh.....

These are the STANDARDS that the industry uses.

Do you need more examples? I even included one FROM RAM.

It's obvious that you've never owned a fifth wheel. If you had, you wouldn't be posting any of this. You never calculate the weight of a trailer empty because you will never tow it empty. Here's another tidbit of info for you. The camper's dry weight on the sticker isn't even accurate when it gets to the dealership. Once the battery and propane tanks are added, the weight has already increased. If they add in any other accessories, the weight is reduced yet again. That dry weight sticker that is used to advertise the hitch weight is as useful as a helmet in a bathtub.

If you assume that you'll only load a trailer to 20, 30, or even 50% of it's GVWR you'll eventually exceed it. Things pile up in campers over time and every ounce counts. Trying to squeak in under the payload by assuming you won't is dangerous and is why people don't recommend this method. If you calculate pin weight based upon the GVWR, you ensure that there is enough cushion there. This is always how you calculate when you don't have a CAT scale available.

You have to account for every lb that is put in the truck, on the truck, or in/on the trailer that was not there when it left the assembly line. It's really simple.

nlambert182 · Feb 14, 2024

crash68 said:
You can throw your assumption about what a fifth wheel pin weight and trailer tongue weight "should" be out the window. Depending on the trailer design those weights may not even be in the ballpark. That small fiver pin weight would double to get to where you're assuming it will be, going from 16% up to 25% weight percentage which would mean about half the payload would need to be stacked on the pin. With that kind of loading you might as well sell your truck and go buy a Peterbilt, Mack or Kenworth semi.

Not true at all. These are not assumptions. They're the standards used in the industry and there are tons of trucks that can meet this standard with ease. Just not many 1500s. Ask yourself why.

If you ever want to validate this, find someone with this trailer and have them pull across CAT scales completely empty and calculate the pin weight on the rear axle. Then load it up to the cargo capacity limit and re-weigh it. I guarantee you'll be in the 18-22% pin weight range and hit these numbers. It's math... not common core math.

Back when Reace and Tammy Harmatuik owned Escape, they actually suggested using 1,600 lbs as the payload capacity for the truck to tow it. I ran across that Youtube video last night. You can search it up. How many 1500s do you know with 1,600 lbs of available payload?

2003F350 · Feb 14, 2024

I was doing a LOT of research on decent sized fifth wheels available last summer - I haven't looked yet this year.

MOST of the advertised pin weights on 'half ton towable' fifth wheels, even if you assume they're using 10% tongue weight of an empty trailer, are more than I'd feel comfortable putting on a half ton truck. Mostly because, as pointed out, to get a half ton truck with any kind of options, they wouldn't have the payload for it, and would BARELY have the rear axle weight rating for it.

Were there a few? Oh yes, absolutely. They weren't anything I was interested in though, as I have to plan for myself, the wife, the kid, and a friend or two, plus our dogs. So we need some floorspace. I wasn't even looking at bunkhouse campers as those are generally even heavier, but I definitely wanted either a bed or closet slide to give us room up front too. I found a few I was interested in but never pulled the trigger.

I have a neighbor who has a 1500 GMC baby duramax, 5.5' bed. He had a fifth wheel hitch put in it - and the shop had to custom-make brackets to get it to fit. He still can't even pull his fifth wheel with it (that he used to pull with his old 1500, a long (8') bed truck from the mid-90's), because if he tries to turn tight it'll wipe out his cab.

My point is this: 1500s aren't REALLY built to pull fifth wheels unless you have specific models. Fifth wheels, in general, aren't built to be pulled by 1500s, with the exception of a few models. Can you find a combination that may work? Yeah, there's a couple combinations out there. But by and large? It's not a good idea.

nlambert182 · Feb 14, 2024

I can't fathom why some fight so hard to try and fit a square peg into a round hole. Use the trucks as they were designed. It's not that complicated.

No fifth wheel was designed to use a 10% pin weight, but they market them that way all the time. Why? Because trailer manufacturers are in the business to sell trailers, not to sell trucks. They're going to broaden their market as much as they can to reach the largest audience possible. It's not on them if you overload a truck and crash. You own the responsibility of validating.

Say, you really want this fifth wheel? You only have a 1500? If you can't pull it with a 1500 you'll walk? Well looky here... you're JUST under the specs with this 1/2 ton towable fifth wheel. Imagine the luck.

Truck dealerships aren't much better. They're in the business to sell trucks, not trailers. If you tell them you want to tow a fifth wheel but if you have to buy a 2500/3500 to do it instead of this shiny new 1500 that you're going to walk and not buy anything, what do you think that salesman is going to tell you? He's going to whip out that brochure and show you the max ratings... not what that particular truck was spec'd for. Half the time salesmen don't know the difference anyhow.

The only way to make 10% more feasible is to move the trailer axles forward and shift some of the weight from the truck axle to the trailer axles, but then you run into the issue of stability (amongst others). This is why they don't do it. A 10% pin weight under any circumstance on any fifth wheel is too light and will cause some dangerous travel conditions.

The reason that fifth wheels are more stable and pull better than a travel trailer is the design and that design requires a heavier pin weight.

BTW.... even swapping to a Goosebox doesn't help with weight reduction. My last two fifth wheels used a GB. Fantastic thing. But, they're about 170lbs, so once you drop it on the ball, you just added that weight back to the truck.

Riccochet · Feb 14, 2024

nlambert182 said:
BTW.... even swapping to a Goosebox doesn't help with weight reduction. My last two fifth wheels used a GB. Fantastic thing. But, they're about 170lbs, so once you drop it on the ball, you just added that weight back to the truck.

You save a little weight. The pin box, depending on brand and options, weighs around 50-80 lbs. You have to remove that to install the Goosebox or Gen-Y, which weighs around 150. So you're only really adding around 100 lbs to the front of the trailer. And you don't need a 200+ lb hitch in the bed. Just a ball that only weighs a couple pounds. So you are saving about 100 lbs.

Tulecreeper · Feb 14, 2024

crash68 said:
You can throw your assumption about what a fifth wheel pin weight and trailer tongue weight "should" be out the window. Depending on the trailer design those weights may not even be in the ballpark. That small fiver pin weight would double to get to where you're assuming it will be, going from 16% up to 25% weight percentage which would mean about half the payload would need to be stacked on the pin. With that kind of loading you might as well sell your truck and go buy a Peterbilt, Mack or Kenworth semi.

Crash, you and I are usually on the same page but you are mistaken here. Those weights are definitely in the ballpark. A light pin weight for any 5th-wheel would be about 20%; heavy would be 25%. For a bumper pull, light would be 10% and heavy would be 15% (I'm talking about a travel/camp trailer, not a utility trailer). If you get out of those ranges you're going to have problems either overloading you springs/rear axle, or the tail will be wagging you all over the road. I've towed about every conceivable trailer under the sun in the past 40+ years, bumper-pull, 5th-wheel, gooseneck, pintle hook and I know the numbers.

OC455 · Feb 14, 2024

Reflection 100 Series | 22RK

www.granddesignrv.com

This is a light one, but as said before, you'd probably run out of payload...

Randy Grant · Feb 14, 2024

ramffml said:
Those specs don't exist in trucks in the real world, nobody is driving a single cab 2wd tradesman.

My big horn which is already devoid of all heavy features is a 4wd cc which is very common, one of the lightest Rams you can get, and its only 1750 pounds of payload. That's a heavy shaving of 550 pounds from the marketing number.

I just love it when someone says "no one" and "probably" and "all of the time", and $h!t like that. Just shows to go ya

nlambert182 · Feb 14, 2024

Randy Grant said:
I just love it when someone says "no one" and "probably" and "all of the time", and $h!t like that. Just shows to go ya

I applaud the effort to try and prove that 1/2 tons should tow fifth wheels. What's your payload with that limited?

ramffml · Feb 14, 2024

Randy Grant said:
I just love it when someone says "no one" and "probably" and "all of the time", and $h!t like that. Just shows to go ya

We've been asking you to post a pic of your door jamb sticker for years.... Crickets.

I think that "shows to go ya" more :33:

Randy Grant · Feb 14, 2024

23 F150 super crew 4x5

2023 Ford F-150 Specs & Features | Edmunds

Detailed specs and features for the 2023 Ford F-150 including dimensions, horsepower, engine, capacity, fuel economy, transmission, engine type, cylinders, drivetrain and more.

www.edmunds.com

23Silverado 1500 crew cab 4x4

2023 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Specs & Features | Edmunds

Detailed specs and features for the 2023 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 including dimensions, horsepower, engine, capacity, fuel economy, transmission, engine type, cylinders, drivetrain and more.

www.edmunds.com

nlambert182 · Feb 14, 2024

I'm going to guesstimate around 1,000-1,100 lbs (may be high). Doesn't take into account the tonneau or the B&W hitch. I'll make a deal with you... I'll show you mine, you show me yours.

Randy Grant · Feb 14, 2024

nlambert182 said:
I applaud the effort to try and prove that 1/2 tons should tow fifth wheels. What's your payload with that limited?

Just sayin, look at all the manufacturers, and look up the speck, and make your own decision. I don't need someone who has a no load ability Bighorn saying that a 1/2 ton truck can under NO circumstances pull a fiver. Not only is it just an opinion, but it is also worth what it costs.
So, even if a person has a HD 3500 and is towing a 44" toy hauler just under the weight specs, doing 75/80 mph across the flatlands, I consider him more dangerous than some guy 200# overweight with a 1500.
This argument can and will go on forever, but never, and I reiterate, NEVER, say without qualification, that it's imposable for a 1/2 ton to pull a fiver.
The capacities of a truck are based not on strength of the truck, but on many parameters, and the manufacturers set those numbers at a level that removes their liability.
How do automakers come up with the tow rating on a new pickup truck? You might imagine it's a number calculated by engineers sitting at desks, a theoretical measure that's based on a truck's ideal capabilities. The truth is, every new model of truck goes through a rigorous set of real-world standardized tests to ensure that it can accelerate, turn and stop safely while towing the maximum amount recommended by the automaker. Here's everything involved in that strenuous set of tests.

Road & Track contributor Jason Fenske visited Fiat Chrysler's Chelsea Proving Grounds in Michigan to see what goes into the set of tests known as SAE J2807, the certification process for vehicle tow rating. For each test, the truck must be towing the maximum load recommended by the manufacturer.
The acceleration test requires single-wheel trucks to do 0-30 mph in 12 seconds, 0-60 mph in 30 seconds, and 40-60 mph in 18 seconds; those times increase to 14, 35, and 21 seconds, respectively, for dually models. Those times might sound like an eternity in the car world, but for a vehicle pulling the equivalent of 16 new Miatas, it's not bad. The truck must be able to brake from 20 mph to zero in 45 feet with trailer brakes, or 80 feet without.
In terms of handling, the truck needs to be able to maintain understeer as it accelerates on a circular skid pad from 0.1 g to 0.3 g of lateral acceleration. This ensures the truck won't lose control of its rear end (and therefore the trailer) during hard cornering scenarios. In a quick direction-change sway test, the trailer must remain stable and secure without excessive oscillation.
The final test is called the Highway Grade / Davis Dam test, which wasn't performed in Fenske's video. It requires that the truck be able to tow its maximum trailer weight up a specific 11.4-mile uphill stretch of road in Arizona. For this test to be run correctly, it must be at least 100 degrees Fahrenheit outside, and the air conditioning must be on its maximum setting using outside air. The truck must maintain a minimum speed of 40 mph and it can't throw any error codes or burn any fluids during the test.

So, even if a person has a HD 3500 and is towing a 44" toy hauler just under the weight specs, doing 75/80 mph across the flatlands, I consider him more dangerous than some guy 200# overweight with a 1500.
This argument can and will go on forever, but never, and I reiterate, NEVER, say without qualification, that it's imposable for a 1/2 ton to pull a fiver.

Tulecreeper · Feb 14, 2024

Mine, before the tonneau cover, a small tool box, running boards, and all the stuff behind the seat. So probably about 3500# now.

nlambert182 · Feb 14, 2024

Randy Grant said:
Just sayin, look at all the manufacturers, and look up the speck, and make your own decision. I don't need someone who has a no load ability Bighorn saying that a 1/2 ton truck can under NO circumstances pull a fiver. Not only is it just an opinion, but it is also worth what it costs.
So, even if a person has a HD 3500 and is towing a 44" toy hauler just under the weight specs, doing 75/80 mph across the flatlands, I consider him more dangerous than some guy 200# overweight with a 1500.
This argument can and will go on forever, but never, and I reiterate, NEVER, say without qualification, that it's imposable for a 1/2 ton to pull a fiver.
The capacities of a truck are based not on strength of the truck, but on many parameters, and the manufacturers set those numbers at a level that removes their liability.
How do automakers come up with the tow rating on a new pickup truck? You might imagine it's a number calculated by engineers sitting at desks, a theoretical measure that's based on a truck's ideal capabilities. The truth is, every new model of truck goes through a rigorous set of real-world standardized tests to ensure that it can accelerate, turn and stop safely while towing the maximum amount recommended by the automaker. Here's everything involved in that strenuous set of tests.

Road & Track contributor Jason Fenske visited Fiat Chrysler's Chelsea Proving Grounds in Michigan to see what goes into the set of tests known as SAE J2807, the certification process for vehicle tow rating. For each test, the truck must be towing the maximum load recommended by the manufacturer.
The acceleration test requires single-wheel trucks to do 0-30 mph in 12 seconds, 0-60 mph in 30 seconds, and 40-60 mph in 18 seconds; those times increase to 14, 35, and 21 seconds, respectively, for dually models. Those times might sound like an eternity in the car world, but for a vehicle pulling the equivalent of 16 new Miatas, it's not bad. The truck must be able to brake from 20 mph to zero in 45 feet with trailer brakes, or 80 feet without.
In terms of handling, the truck needs to be able to maintain understeer as it accelerates on a circular skid pad from 0.1 g to 0.3 g of lateral acceleration. This ensures the truck won't lose control of its rear end (and therefore the trailer) during hard cornering scenarios. In a quick direction-change sway test, the trailer must remain stable and secure without excessive oscillation.
The final test is called the Highway Grade / Davis Dam test, which wasn't performed in Fenske's video. It requires that the truck be able to tow its maximum trailer weight up a specific 11.4-mile uphill stretch of road in Arizona. For this test to be run correctly, it must be at least 100 degrees Fahrenheit outside, and the air conditioning must be on its maximum setting using outside air. The truck must maintain a minimum speed of 40 mph and it can't throw any error codes or burn any fluids during the test.

So, even if a person has a HD 3500 and is towing a 44" toy hauler just under the weight specs, doing 75/80 mph across the flatlands, I consider him more dangerous than some guy 200# overweight with a 1500.
This argument can and will go on forever, but never, and I reiterate, NEVER, say without qualification, that it's imposable for a 1/2 ton to pull a fiver.

There's no decision to make. What does your truck call out? Post the sticker.

I'll stick mine up here as soon as it's daylight. Then there's no conversation to have.

Riccochet · Feb 14, 2024

Randy Grant said:
Just sayin, look at all the manufacturers, and look up the speck, and make your own decision. I don't need someone who has a no load ability Bighorn saying that a 1/2 ton truck can under NO circumstances pull a fiver. Not only is it just an opinion, but it is also worth what it costs.
So, even if a person has a HD 3500 and is towing a 44" toy hauler just under the weight specs, doing 75/80 mph across the flatlands, I consider him more dangerous than some guy 200# overweight with a 1500.
This argument can and will go on forever, but never, and I reiterate, NEVER, say without qualification, that it's imposable for a 1/2 ton to pull a fiver.
The capacities of a truck are based not on strength of the truck, but on many parameters, and the manufacturers set those numbers at a level that removes their liability.
How do automakers come up with the tow rating on a new pickup truck? You might imagine it's a number calculated by engineers sitting at desks, a theoretical measure that's based on a truck's ideal capabilities. The truth is, every new model of truck goes through a rigorous set of real-world standardized tests to ensure that it can accelerate, turn and stop safely while towing the maximum amount recommended by the automaker. Here's everything involved in that strenuous set of tests.

Road & Track contributor Jason Fenske visited Fiat Chrysler's Chelsea Proving Grounds in Michigan to see what goes into the set of tests known as SAE J2807, the certification process for vehicle tow rating. For each test, the truck must be towing the maximum load recommended by the manufacturer.
The acceleration test requires single-wheel trucks to do 0-30 mph in 12 seconds, 0-60 mph in 30 seconds, and 40-60 mph in 18 seconds; those times increase to 14, 35, and 21 seconds, respectively, for dually models. Those times might sound like an eternity in the car world, but for a vehicle pulling the equivalent of 16 new Miatas, it's not bad. The truck must be able to brake from 20 mph to zero in 45 feet with trailer brakes, or 80 feet without.
In terms of handling, the truck needs to be able to maintain understeer as it accelerates on a circular skid pad from 0.1 g to 0.3 g of lateral acceleration. This ensures the truck won't lose control of its rear end (and therefore the trailer) during hard cornering scenarios. In a quick direction-change sway test, the trailer must remain stable and secure without excessive oscillation.
The final test is called the Highway Grade / Davis Dam test, which wasn't performed in Fenske's video. It requires that the truck be able to tow its maximum trailer weight up a specific 11.4-mile uphill stretch of road in Arizona. For this test to be run correctly, it must be at least 100 degrees Fahrenheit outside, and the air conditioning must be on its maximum setting using outside air. The truck must maintain a minimum speed of 40 mph and it can't throw any error codes or burn any fluids during the test.

So, even if a person has a HD 3500 and is towing a 44" toy hauler just under the weight specs, doing 75/80 mph across the flatlands, I consider him more dangerous than some guy 200# overweight with a 1500.
This argument can and will go on forever, but never, and I reiterate, NEVER, say without qualification, that it's imposable for a 1/2 ton to pull a fiver.

You sounds like one of those guys that buys a 2500 diesel and says "muh deezul can tow whatever. Don't let some guhbmint sticker tell you what you can and can't do wit yer deezul. It's a DEEZUL! It'll pull a 44' toy hauler cross country at 80 mph. It's a DEEZUL! Just needs some errbags, it'll do whatever you want"

Ratman6161 · Feb 14, 2024

It seems to me like must of us end up already having a truck and then get the bug to buy a camper.mmsomwe wnat to know what we can tow with what we have.

So what information do we know? For the truck we have VIN specific information from the sticker. But even that dooesnt tell the whole story. What accessories have been added? How many people? How much other stuff. So what is your real available payload. But I can figure those things out.

But for the camper? We have a manufacturers brocure or web site which at best gives us "dry" numbers. Just an FYI, even the sticker on my TT doesn't mean a lot. It says 6807. But when I weighed it on the way homenfrom the dealership, it was 7034with two full propane tanks and two batteries. But how much will it weigh and what will the tongue weight be when I load it? Even though I had a very good idea from past trailers how much I load I wouldn't know what the tongue weight will be until I weigh it loaded.

So thats the problem. It's difficult to nearly impossible to know for sure what load the trailer will put on the truck and how well the truck will handle it until after you buy it. And if you guess wrong you have a problem. Been there and done that.

That's why we use rules of thumb...there isn't much else to go by. And it pays to be conservative to avoid costly mistakes...once again been there and done that. That's why I'm sticking to the 20% of GVWR rule of thumb when looking at fifthnwhels.

Fifth Wheels By Keystone For 1500

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