For the guys who think deactivating the mds via a tune is a good idea

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JHoward

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I always hated mds, but I just couldn't justify a tune for a while. Anyways as typical with all these hemis, the pcv had sent so much oil into my intake and I decided to pull my manifold, clean it and regasket it. I read somewhere on here that installing the plugs without a non-mds cam would cause problems, but leaving them in and unplugged would be fine. So while I was cleaning my intake manifold on my truck I said screw it and unplugged em.

That gave me a cel because of course it would. It convinced me to finally get an unlocked ECU and a tuner. I have mds disabled in my tune and I've never had any problems.

Is it totally possible that I misread something and could have just put in the block off plugs? Of course it is. Do I care enough to pull my intake manifold off again to replace the solenoids with block off plugs? No way haha.

Besides, it's like an egr delete, if it's unplugged, it's effectively blocked off the same as a plate would do.

With the tune, did you bump the engine idle up~750rpms?

From what I've learned here in the RAMforum, lower rpms at idle are supposedly harder on the cam/lifters due to lower volume of oil "splash".
 

RainZeros

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With the tune, did you bump the engine idle up~750rpms?

From what I've learned here in the RAMforum, lower rpms at idle are supposedly harder on the cam/lifters due to lower volume of oil "splash".
No, but it's definitely something I will be looking into, I regularly see it idling around 600 rippems.
To be fair, I drive like a bat out of hell, often taking "trips to Mexico" to test my top speed, (I seem to hit a power wall at 132, I could probably hit 135 in 3-5 business days) so who knows that very much could be the reason I don't have any lifter tick. Either that or it knows that I'm itching to throw a hellcat engine in.
 

JHoward

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No, but it's definitely something I will be looking into, I regularly see it idling around 600 rippems.
To be fair, I drive like a bat out of hell, often taking "trips to Mexico" to test my top speed, (I seem to hit a power wall at 132, I could probably hit 135 in 3-5 business days) so who knows that very much could be the reason I don't have any lifter tick. Either that or it knows that I'm itching to throw a hellcat engine in.

Actually, all you did by unplugging the solenoids is the same difference from just manually turning them off on the steering wheel/shift sector and getting the CEL ... in which you were already doing before unplugging them.

So, I'll just opt for doing an cam/lifter swap with MDS delete via an program when that time comes.

Happy motoring and hammer down!
 

RainZeros

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Actually, all you did by unplugging the solenoids is the same difference from just manually turning them off on the steering wheel/shift sector and getting the CEL ... in which you were already doing before unplugging them.

So, I'll just opt for doing an cam/lifter swap with MDS delete via an program when that time comes.

Happy motoring and hammer down!
Yeah the only reason I unplugged them is so I can be lazy and not have to press buttons every time to be honest haha
 

ramffml

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Yeah the only reason I unplugged them is so I can be lazy and not have to press buttons every time to be honest haha

You may be a good candidate for a pulsar! It says it adds up to 30 hp/lb ft, and also has the ability to turn off MDS.

Two birds, one stone.

Only downside is that it changes your pedal sensitivity too and I detest that specific feature because I can't change the values independently of the hp tune.
 

JHoward

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You may be a good candidate for a pulsar! It says it adds up to 30 hp/lb ft, and also has the ability to turn off MDS.

Two birds, one stone.

Only downside is that it changes your pedal sensitivity too and I detest that specific feature because I can't change the values independently of the hp tune.

I have one and took it off. I couldn't tell anything different other than my HEMI was more peppy due to the Pulsar "adjusting the go fast peddle" when selecting the "#8 canned tune" ... even selecting #8 (Performance Mode/non Active MDS), my HEMI would still for a split nano second would come out of MDS mode ... maybe the Pulsar needed to be sent back and reprogrammed or replaced ... I'm not convinced of the hp/torq gain at 30 each, but never had it Dyno'd for actual verification ... I took the Pulsar off and it currently resides in my front computer room's closet.
 

ramffml

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I have one and took it off. I couldn't tell anything different other than my HEMI was more peppy due to the Pulsar "adjusting the go fast peddle" when selecting the "#8 canned tune" ... even selecting #8 (Performance Mode/non Active MDS), my HEMI would still for a split nano second would come out of MDS mode ... maybe the Pulsar needed to be sent back and reprogrammed or replaced ... I'm not convinced of the hp/torq gain at 30 each, but never had it Dyno'd for actual verification ... I took the Pulsar off and it currently resides in my front computer room's closet.

Just curious, have you tried with 91+ octane for at least 2 full consecutive tanks?

They have dyno tested it on YT and found some gains but whether you feel it seat of the pants on 87 or not, that could be hard to say.
 

RainZeros

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You may be a good candidate for a pulsar! It says it adds up to 30 hp/lb ft, and also has the ability to turn off MDS.

Two birds, one stone.

Only downside is that it changes your pedal sensitivity too and I detest that specific feature because I can't change the values independently of the hp tune.
Would have been a good candidate* I'm fully tuned. Zoom zoom!
 

crackerjack1957

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Tuning for 87 octane would be to get rid of ping if you have detonation......will be no performance increase at all.
HP & torque tune increase would be advance timing with added fuel/air from the higher octane fuels. More octane=more timing=more power
 
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Wild one

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I always hated mds, but I just couldn't justify a tune for a while. Anyways as typical with all these hemis, the pcv had sent so much oil into my intake and I decided to pull my manifold, clean it and regasket it. I read somewhere on here that installing the plugs without a non-mds cam would cause problems, but leaving them in and unplugged would be fine. So while I was cleaning my intake manifold on my truck I said screw it and unplugged em.

That gave me a cel because of course it would. It convinced me to finally get an unlocked ECU and a tuner. I have mds disabled in my tune and I've never had any problems.

Is it totally possible that I misread something and could have just put in the block off plugs? Of course it is. Do I care enough to pull my intake manifold off again to replace the solenoids with block off plugs? No way haha.

Besides, it's like an egr delete, if it's unplugged, it's effectively blocked off the same as a plate would do.
You'd need at the very least to replace the 8 mds lifters with 8 non-mds lifters to pull the solenoids and replace them with the plugs,otherwise the engine will always be in mds mode.
Unplugging the solenoids isn't the same as replacing them with the plugs,as they're stuck in the closed loop,and restrict oil to the lifter bores,while the plugs allow full oil flow to the lifter bores,that's why the engine would be in full time mds mode with just a solenoid replacement.
The cam lobes are differant between the mds and non-mds lobes,with in laymans terms a softer ramp profile for the mds lifters to soften the clearance shock. Techinically you should also replace the cam to a non-mds cam,but there have been guys who just slammed non-mds lifters in place of the mds lifters ,replaced the solenoids with the plugs and are getting away with it
 

JHoward

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Just curious, have you tried with 91+ octane for at least 2 full consecutive tanks?

They have dyno tested it on YT and found some gains but whether you feel it seat of the pants on 87 or not, that could be hard to say.

I've always used non-ethenol 91 octane, nothing else.
 

JHoward

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You'd need at the very least to replace the 8 mds lifters with 8 non-mds lifters to pull the solenoids and replace them with the plugs,otherwise the engine will always be in mds mode.
Unplugging the solenoids isn't the same as replacing them with the plugs,as they're stuck in the closed loop,and restrict oil to the lifter bores,while the plugs allow full oil flow to the lifter bores,that's why the engine would be in full time mds mode with just a solenoid replacement.
The cam lobes are differant between the mds and non-mds lobes,with in laymans terms a softer ramp profile for the mds lifters to soften the clearance shock. Techinically you should also replace the cam to a non-mds cam,but there have been guys who just slammed non-mds lifters in place of the mds lifters ,replaced the solenoids with the plugs and are getting away with it

Yep, absolutely. I'm surprised at folks whom opt out on installing just the non-MDS lifters or even sometimes re-using the original cam, they've already gone that far into it not to replace all lifters/cam, rather MDS delete altogether.
 
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JHoward

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Just curious, have you tried with 91+ octane for at least 2 full consecutive tanks?

They have dyno tested it on YT and found some gains but whether you feel it seat of the pants on 87 or not, that could be hard to say.

@ramffml, I'm not knocking on you, maybe I could give it another go ... slap it back on and let "r" rip again and make another assessed opinion if it's worth it and if I missed something.
 
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Dodge 1500 4X4

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Saturn had locked prices right?
They sure did along with trying to steal your trade in, and the fact that their biggest engine was a 2.0 4 banger super coupe way under powered for the size of the car and I believe there was allot of blown molded plastic body panels, my son G/F had one w 1.5 liter that consumed large quantities of motor oil wound up seizing it up.
 

Lsujker

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my son G/F had one w 1.5 liter that consumed large quantities of motor oil wound up seizing it up.
Shame on her for lack of maintenance. The known problem should have been managed better.

Had a Jeep 3.8 that would guzzle a quart every 1,000 miles. Would check every 1K miles and add a quart. Was a trouble free vehicle for 7 years until selling it.

Not giving a pass to Saturn by any means. Was never impressed.
 

Bmags

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That exacerbates the root cause, which is subpar metallurgy of the components.
I don't see how you can have it both ways.

You can't say for instance that disabling MDS is the cause of the failure due to poor oiling pressure... and then at the same time say that idle time doesn't matter. Idling has the lowest oil pressure from the pump, and MDS is not active. Driving down the road oil pressure is much higher and there is splashing, so with or without the MDS being active there is plenty of oil up there.
 

CUAviator

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That's exactly right. :cheers:

That's not the case for 5th gens though, which helps explain some of the confusion. We get a lot of cross-posting so it's good to be clear about which gen you're talking about when making claims about something like this.
Out of curiosity - I just purchased a 2024 1500 Classic (Warlock) - 5.7, non eToque, 4x4. What generation does this fall into? On the forum list, Gen 4 has the Classics” up to 2023, then Gen 5 doesn’t mention them. My last Ram was an 03 1500 5.7 that I bought new on the lot and traded in this weekend (sad tears)…I knew where that one stood.
 

CUAviator

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For the guys who maybe can't see Blacks link ,here it is.



MDS operation, an explanation.​


Most of us really don't have an idea of how MDS works in our Hemi trucks. Questions are always popping up about Eco mode, MDS, affect on the truck, when it works etc.

Did some searching around the web and found some interesting information on MDS. So here goes.



View attachment 541787



How Chrysler's Multiple Displacement System Works



In 2005, the Multiple Displacement System (MDS) version of the 5.7L HEMI engine was introduced on the Chrysler 300C and Dodge Magnum. This engine can deactivate four of the eight cylinders, and operate as a 4-cylinder engine during periods of low load, improving fuel economy and emissions. The MDS provides the 5.7L engine the fuel economy of a V6 while maintaining the performance of a V8. The fuel economy improvement is estimated to be up to 20 percent, depending on driving conditions. The MDS operation, invisible to the driver, is fully integrated into the fuel injection system.

"In 2005, the Multiple Displacement System (MDS) version of the 5.7L HEMI engine was introduced on the Chrysler 300C and Dodge Magnum. This engine can deactivate four of the eight cylinders, and operate as a 4-cylinder engine during periods of low load, improving fuel economy and emissions.”

When the MDS engine switches to 4-cylinder mode, the powertrain control module (PCM) controls solenoids that manage special "dual mode" lifters, allowing the intake and exhaust valves to remain closed on cylinders 1, 4, 6 and 7. There is one solenoid for each cylinder (two lifters). The PCM also deactivates the fuel injectors for these cylinders when in the 4-cylinder mode.

When the MDS solenoids are in the "off" state (8-cylinder mode), they supply oil pressure of approximately 3 psi to the lifter bores. This lifter oil keeps the bores lubricated and prevents air from entering the system. When the solenoids are activated, oil pressure of 16 psi or greater is supplied to the lifters and the engine enters the 4-cylinder mode.

When the special lifters are supplied high oil pressure by the solenoid, pins inside the lifter move inward. This unlocks the outer portion of the lifter and allows it to move independently from the center portion of the lifter. The camshaft can move the outer portion of the lifter without transferring motion to the inner portion of the lifter.

8-cylinder mode: Solenoids are in the "off" state (de-energized). Minimal oil pressure is applied to the special lifter. They are working normally in this mode.

4-cylinder mode: Solenoids are in the "on" state (energized). High oil pressure is applied to the special lifters and the lifters become inactive and essentially the four pistons are along for the ride. Both valves are closed.

The PCM will activate the 4-cylinder mode when the following enabling conditions are met:

Low engine load

1200 to 3000 rpm

Vehicle speed between 12 mph and 90 mph

Battery voltage from 9 volts to 15 volts

Oil pressure from 15 psi to 147 psi

Oil temperature greater than 120 F

Engine coolant temperature from 158 to 248 F

Ambient temperature from 14 F to 248 F

No throttle position sensor or MDS faults

The PCM deactivates solenoids one cylinder at a time in the firing order. If the system is "on" for long periods of time, such as a long flat road with no stopping, the system will return to the 8-cylinder mode approximately every six minutes to maintain engine temperature. The PCM will also unlock the torque converter before the transition, to minimize the effect on driveability.

The oil temperature sensor used for this system is a two-wire sensor, negative temperature coefficient, like the sensors for engine coolant temperature or intake air temperature (IAT). The PCM uses this input - along with oil pressure, load and rpm - to calculate oil viscosity and flow rate. This information is critical to MDS operation.

It's important to know this engine uses 5W-20 engine oil. If the wrong oil is used, fault code P1521 can be set, and the vehicle may show symptoms of a shudder - similar to a torque converter shudder - when the MDS system is activated and deactivated. Other symptoms may include MDS performance codes or engine misfire codes.

Before spending a lot of time with these codes, use the vehicle service history to find out what type of oil is in the engine. Because this is not always possible, the next best thing is to replace the oil (and filter) with 5W-20. This may have to be done twice to fully restore the system back to normal. Oil sludging, restricted oil passages or lifter contamination can also cause problems with this system.

Quick facts:

Each MDS solenoid has about 12 ohms of resistance. When the solenoid is activated by applying 12 volts to it, an audible "click" can be heard from under the intake manifold. This test can be done with a jumper wire or by using the actuator test mode (ATM) mode of a compatible scan tool.

If the solenoid is mechanically stuck in the "on" position, the result will be one dead cylinder.

Hopefully, this information will be helpful if one of these systems shows up in your shop.
The PCM will activate the 4-cylinder mode when the following enabling conditions are met:

Low engine load

1200 to 3000 rpm

Vehicle speed between 12 mph and 90 mph

Battery voltage from 9 volts to 15 volts

Oil pressure from 15 psi to 147 psi

Oil temperature greater than 120 F

Engine coolant temperature from 158 to 248 F

Ambient temperature from 14 F to 248 F

No throttle position sensor or MDS faults

soooo, all the time
 

Sherman Bird

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that got me thinking....what would the total cost of a car or truck be from the showroom floor, to a few other buyers over the years until it ends up being crushed into a square at the junk yard?

obviously banks are making a killing on interest rates for each loan thru out the years. another conspiracy going on. lol
And to further the insult, Banks imply that vehicles are, somehow, steeped in value enough to refer to them as "Assets"
Fact is, they are depreciating liabilities, pure and simple, and eventually have a net value of ZERO. But, if that truth were to be highlighted, the entire structure of prying money from folks' hands in all the levels of the automotive ownership reality might fold! ;)

Look at all the ancillary monies brought about from automobiles from accessories to insurance. I wonder if anyone ever saw these silly ads for car insurance as an insulting snub to car owners. Someone has to pay the billions for the advertising revenue! I do like the ones about mayhem, though to be honest!
 
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