Hemi Tick....but lifters look fine??

[ramnododge]

Hi guys. Coming in for some advice for my current project. My problem statement is I just tore apart my engine expecting a failed lifter....but no failed lifters to be found. So here is what happened....

I bought a 2013 Ram 1500 5.7L 4x4 Express with 145k miles on it. Owners selling the truck knew it had the "hemi tick". I checked both exhaust manifolds on the spot...yup, heat shields both broken off. But the price was good enough, even if it was the "true" Hemi tick, I could fix it, no problem....

It's a white work truck, and the owner is high up at a construction company, so quite a bit of heavy idling onsite (of course the idle hours say 0 though). INDICATION #1...

The tick is loud. Its there at startup....and it doesn't go away. So I drove it about 500 miles started by replacing the passenger exhaust manifold. Fun bolt extraction time. But no go, tick was still there. The same day, I changed the oil with RP 5w20 and a Mopar oil filter. AND THE TICK ACTUALLY WENT AWAY! INDICATION #2....

Buttttt then after a few hundred miles, the tick came back. It came back kinda slowly, and over the course of about 100 miles, it progressively got back to as bad as it once was. SO, I replaced the driver side exhaust manifold....and the tick was still there! INDICATION #3...

I drove it about 3k miles and decided to change the oil again, same RP 5w20, but this time with some Lucas Oil Stabilizer. Admittedly, I DID look for metal shavings, but never really found anything that I considered "unordinary", but I unfortunately didn't bother cutting into the filter. Well, this oil change did nothing to get rid of the tick like it did the first time. But then this time, about 40 miles after the oil change, Cylinder 2 misfire + really rough idle. INDICATION #4...

So at this point, if I wasn't already sure it was the lifters, I was POSITIVE there was a failed lifter (based on my professional internet research, and severe lack of knowledge on engines). Went ahead and bought the cam+lifter+everything kit from MMX. Started the project yesterday, and to my surprise, all the lifters look fine!! On Cylinder 2, it is just slightly interesting that its the only lifter that has a slight discoloration to it, but still in working order. All the rods looking perfectly normal to me. I unfortunately don't have enough knowledge to understand wtf I am seeing on the valves, on the driver side cylinder head? Related to issues, or is that normal?

Anyways, I'm pretty down/stuck because of the time/money wasted. Well, not the time because this is all a learning experience for me, never having dug this far into an engine. But I stopped there, I did not pull the camshaft yet. Any thoughts here? Is it possible that in some weird world, it was a lifter but I'm just not seeing it? Or is there something else on the valve train I should look for while I'm this deep? Truck is torn apart, so I'm all ears on what to go investigate!

Video of "ticking"

 

[HarryS]

What does the cam look like?

 

[ramnododge]

Admittedly I stopped for the night, right before pulling the cam. I figured if the lifters didn't show any signs of failure, that the cam wouldn't either, right? But I certainly will get the cam out once I've got some daylight in the morning.

 

[Burla]

You are balls deep into this now, so I'm guessing you will just get the cam out? For sure the cam lob can be toast and no sign on lifter, this can be a slow rubbing of metal off overtime. Lucas is for old rings, not sure that is helpful here, instead of thick oil you want semi thick oil with heavy additives, been proven to work better. Lifters on the hemi suffer from perpendicular forces, it restricts the lift and that causes tick, but the cam lob spins and hits that head on, so it can for sure be like this. A couple things like esters and moly and maybe others boron zddp or pao, can all help ease perpendicular forces, once you are all put together, find lubrication threads here.
Cam install thread.

 

[ramnododge]

Understood...will stay away from the oil thickener. And yes, I fully intend to take Cam off. Crank pulley, water pump, timing cover, everything has been removed. I just didn't have it in me to take my time with the timing chain, after believing that if the lifters were fine, that the cam would be too. So, definitely noted, I'll be pulling the cam first thing in the morning as the next troubleshooting step! But, stupid question here; if a lobe has been completely worn down, is the solution still to change out the lifter(s)? Aka, is it still a lifter problem?

 

[Burla]

That is a great question but sadly hard to answer. I would change the lifters out at that point simply for the wear on the rollers, so new rollers have great value. 2016 hemi OEM lifters have updated rods, they are thicker. But, we have some evidence here that a metalurgy shows the lifters are fine and not the issue. I don't think we have 100% knowledge yet, my best guess is you don't have a lifter problem at all but a lubrication problem.

 

[Wild one]

Change all the lifters if you're installing a new cam.You got 1 cylinder burning oil,might not be a bad idea to replace the valve seals while your at it,also gives you a chance to closely inspect the valve springs,as they have been known to break on a high milege engine. Check the cylinder walls over closely for any scratches/ridges while you're cleaning up the piston tops,and make sure the pistons are all good.

 

[mrack]

Did you check the plungers on the top of all the lifters? There’s more to the lifters then the roller bearing. Stick your finger in the end and it should push in about 1/8” inch

 

[ramnododge]

UPDATE:

I pulled the Cam....and there IS a bit of pitting/flaking here. Having a hard time count/understanding the alternate lobing....that's Cyl 6, right? I have zero frame of reference for this, so I totally understand that this could be causing the noise. What's interesting to me is that Cyl 2 threw the misfire code. I suppose everything is correlated, right. Regardless, this is NOT normal wear on a lobe, correct? All the pictures I've seen of lifter/cam failure is the lobe was just worn down, not pitted.

Change all the lifters if you're installing a new cam.You got 1 cylinder burning oil,might not be a bad idea to replace the valve seals while your at it,also gives you a chance to closely inspect the valve springs,as they have been known to break on a high milege engine. Check the cylinder walls over closely for any scratches/ridges while you're cleaning up the piston tops,and make sure the pistons are all good.

I will do just that! I know enough to inspect the walls and see something out of the ordinary, but I will have to research valve seals and what exactly I'm looking for with the springs.

Did you check the plungers on the top of all the lifters? There’s more to the lifters then the roller bearing. Stick your finger in the end and it should push in about 1/8” inch

I did not know that! I did check the bottom of each lifter....that's difficult to tell, but all of them seemed to have play in them.

 

[Wild one]

UPDATE:

I pulled the Cam....and there IS a bit of pitting/flaking here. Having a hard time count/understanding the alternate lobing....that's Cyl 6, right? I have zero frame of reference for this, so I totally understand that this could be causing the noise. What's interesting to me is that Cyl 2 threw the misfire code. I suppose everything is correlated, right. Regardless, this is NOT normal wear on a lobe, correct? All the pictures I've seen of lifter/cam failure is the lobe was just worn down, not pitted.

View attachment 550289
View attachment 550290


I will do just that! I know enough to inspect the walls and see something out of the ordinary, but I will have to research valve seals and what exactly I'm looking for with the springs.


I did not know that! I did check the bottom of each lifter....that's difficult to tell, but all of them seemed to have play in them.

You got lucky and caught that early,as another 500 to 1,000 miles would of had that cam wore down,with a bunch of metal shavings in the engine. Check your pushrods over close for wear on the tips/ends.

 

[Burla]

You can see it is the post, so that roller is toast and the lifter post hitting there not dead center where the roller would have hit. Weird, I don't see a mis fire here unless somehow the fact the roller is toast it is causing misfire, which I'm not sure I believe. Everything looks good on 2, plugs look fine valves good, anything on piston top different then others? Get new pistons or at least rings, new cam, new lifters, my guess this will be a survivor hemi, only see small issue, probably related poor maintenance and cheap oil. Misfire is still not revealed.

I like this guys style, wish I had 50% of get er done like this guy.

 

[Burla]

Like Rick said look at push rods, I would hate to think the Lucas could have caused a misfire. If it was original lucas visc is over 100 compared to regular oil 9-12, and when it is cold it is insanely thick, it is possible? Well the only mis fire came after the Lucas, so I think it is possible. Likely, dunno, but if you cant find a reason for the mis fire I would hang my hat on that.

"But then this time, about 40 miles after the oil change, Cylinder 2 misfire + really rough idle. "

sometimes the obvious is the answer.

 

[ramnododge]

Like Rick said look at push rods, I would hate to think the Lucas could have caused a misfire. If it was original lucas visc is over 100 compared to regular oil 9-12, and when it is cold it is insanely thick, it is possible? Well the only mis fire came after the Lucas, so I think it is possible. Likely, dunno, but if you cant find a reason for the mis fire I would hang my hat on that.

"But then this time, about 40 miles after the oil change, Cylinder 2 misfire + really rough idle. "

sometimes the obvious is the answer.

Great advice, from you and Rick! I checked the rods. They all look pretty good. But fortunately those are all getting replaced as well. Nothing looked weird on any of the pistons/cylinders, so I think you are right; the obvious misfire right after the Lucas oil is purely an isolated event. I’m hopeful that new cam, lifters, rods etc will make a huge change.

As for the pistons, I’ll do some research on those and the valve seals+springs. Those are two things I don’t know anything about, so I need to see if that’s within my skillset, as if any of this was lol. Looks like these heads will be off for a while.

Next challenge is see what I can do to get this oil pump off without dropping the pan. Classically….im having doubts if I kept tension on the chain and won’t be able to move forward until I verify

 

[ramnododge]

You got lucky and caught that early,as another 500 to 1,000 miles would of had that cam wore down,with a bunch of metal shavings in the engine. Check your pushrods over close for wear on the tips/ends.

Absolutely. Fortunately, I think the random misfire got me to park the truck immediately!

 

[mrack]

Timing is super simple to set on hemis, don’t worry about that. Only thing to know is at top dead center, the cam gear will be at 12 o’clock and the crank gear will be just a half tooth shy of 6 o’clock, not a perfect 12 and 6. That had me stumped when I did it.

For the pickup tube bolt, get a cheap 1/2” wrench and grind it down real thin, and be prepared for about an hour of frustration lol

 

[SSimone310]

I didn’t finish reading your comments. But if your this deep might as well do the full rebuild. Change the piston rings they are known to fail. My 2011 is at 81k & I have the tick. Just don’t use mopar parts. Make sure you upgrade to a high volume oil pump. That’s what started a lot of this beside chinesium parts. The pump puts out enough psi but not enough volume. Millings has a good high volume pump. And clean the screen on the tube in the oil pan. There are companies that sell a fully rebuilt engine with all these upgrades and tested.

 

[Marshall]

cam looks like you pulled it out in time, I would suggest a shop to clean up the heads and values if you are not sure about that part.
plane the exhaust manifolds while you have it apart.

 

[Dusty]

I've seen some pitting on cam lobes before, but that looks pretty severe IMO. Odd that the pitting only affected that one lobe, unless a poor hardening or a fragment of metal got between the roller and the cam lobe as it was spinning.

Fortunately the problem appears moot since you've already purchased everything.

Good luck.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 118831 miles.

 

[mrack]

Just don’t use mopar parts.

This is the worst advice ever

 

[ramnododge]

I didn’t finish reading your comments. But if your this deep might as well do the full rebuild. Change the piston rings they are known to fail. My 2011 is at 81k & I have the tick. Just don’t use mopar parts. Make sure you upgrade to a high volume oil pump. That’s what started a lot of this beside chinesium parts. The pump puts out enough psi but not enough volume. Millings has a good high volume pump. And clean the screen on the tube in the oil pan. There are companies that sell a fully rebuilt engine with all these upgrades and tested.

I agree with you on all of this. Though I was trying to put as little money into this truck as possible, since I kinda consider it my secondary car/work truck. I am certainly not a mechanic, and the piston rings sounds a bit more out of my league with having to drop everything from the bottom or lift to get to it. I barely had enough tools to do what I've done so far with taking the top end off, I'm not sure that's in my wheelhouse. As for the oil pump...I've done a few months of research on that, and the causes of the tick. I agree with you on the not enough volume part, but I think I have taken the stance of what I can handle vs what is true best. I opted to go the route of a tuner that will bump the idle rpms up a bit to help oil flow at idle, paired with the simple action of "don't idle the truck". All that paired with good oil and good oil change interval, I truly believe that will give me what I need from this truck. I have already bought everything I need from MMX, and most of them are in fact Mopar parts. I think I've found a main consensus on this forum, and that is to just take care of the damn thing!