What is the best DEF/EGR delete kit?

[18CrewDually]

I had a couple of interesting experiences in regard to deleting a diesel late model truck. I owned a 2019 Ram 3500 SWB single rear wheel truck that I used for towing a toy hauler. The truck developed electrical problems that the dealer diagnosed as a faulty TIPM module. The module was on indefinite nationwide backorder, no ETA for getting a replacement. In this situation it surprised me that the dealer was willing to take it on trade for a 2023 Ram 3500 LWB single rear wheel truck, with an excellent trade in price given. Except, they had to pull the truck into their shop and expect the emissions equipment. They told me if it had been deleted, they wouldn't take the truck for any price. It had not been deleted.

A year later Ram was offering $11,000 incentives on new trucks, and I had changed from a toy hauler to a slide in camper that was a little too much for my single rear wheel truck. I went to a different dealer and price shopped for a similarly equipped 2024 dual rear wheel 3500 LWB truck. With the incentives on the new truck and low miles on my 2023 I was able to trade for a dually truck for a great price. This was a different dealer, and once again they took it into their shop to inspect the emissions equipment. If it had been deleted, they wouldn't have taken the truck for any price.

So that may be something to think about. Delete the emissions equipment on your diesel truck and it is unsellable at that point.

Where? At the least, what state was that in?

 

[ric221]

Delete don't Delete Mod don't Mod Lift don't Lift. For everyone choosing to do one or the other there is someone saying you should never do it. If you want it do it remember this is your truck and any decision should be made by you and only you, not the nay sayers who believe you are wrong for doing it. I personally don't like Lifted trucks, I would never try to tell you, you are a bad person for lifting your truck.

 

[3TV]

Where? At the least, what state was that in?

Utah

 

[18CrewDually]

Utah

Ok thanks. NJ can be as stringent. Especially since they tracked deleted auction trucks to dealers for resale, then fined the car lot for trying to resell it as a deleted truck.

 

[Choupique]

Delete don't Delete Mod don't Mod Lift don't Lift. For everyone choosing to do one or the other there is someone saying you should never do it

Reliability is inversely proportional to the amount of modifications done.

 

[chri5k]

Reliability is inversely proportional to the amount of modifications done.

Not really a hard and fast rule.
Replacing the cam, lifters and oil pump on a Hemi improves reliability. Aftermarket shocks improve ride and handling while lasting as long or longer than OEM. Aftermarket tires last way longer and perform better than the stock TransForce tires on HD trucks. Just to name a few “mods” from OEM bone stock.

 

[06 Dodge]

So that may be something to think about. Delete the emissions equipment on your diesel truck and it is unsellable at that point.

Only if you don't keep the emission parts you remove, by keeping those parts they can be reinstalled in 8-10 hours

 

[Riccochet]

Not really a hard and fast rule.
Replacing the cam, lifters and oil pump on a Hemi improves reliability. Aftermarket shocks improve ride and handling while lasting as long or longer than OEM. Aftermarket tires last way longer and perform better than the stock TransForce tires on HD trucks. Just to name a few “mods” from OEM bone stock.

Don't feed the troll.

Anyone that has worked on / built vehicles knows that modifying for reliability is a thing.

 

[Choupique]

Anyone that has worked on / built vehicles knows that modifying for reliability is a thing

I wonder how many around here have designed vehicles? I'm not trolling. I do machinery design professionally.

 

[nlambert182]

And I assume someone is doing a torsional vibration analysis with the newly modified cylinder pressure maps to verify the damper is still doing its job? Making sure vibratory torque isnt chewing up the transmission? Making sure the turbo actuator duty cycle is within the limits it was designed for? Making sure the newly reduced backpressure isnt going to lead to compressor stalls and turbo overspeeds? Doing a few million miles of validation testing?

There's a universal theme when talking about trucks that **** out on people - they're deleted diesels. Every diesel bros "dude" who does their truck is an expert who REALLY knows what he's doing, free from the restraints of the EPA to make an engine run "like its supposed to." None of those trucks ever last as long as factory ones.

Don't do it. Sell it and get a gas burner.

You still don't listen.... the "dude bros" that have trouble with these trucks are the same dude bros that delete them with the sole purpose of upping the HP. That absolutely causes issues. There are way more people around who didn't turn up their trucks that routinely go hundreds of thousands of trouble free miles with them.

I have a family member right now with a 2013 3500 SRW that has over 330k on the clock. He tows a skidsteer all over the Florida panhandle with this truck and has yet to have one issue with it. I can give you 100 more anecdotes of people in the same boat. It wouldn't matter.

If someone wants to do it, that's their decision. If someone doesn't want to do it, also their decision. It isn't black or white. Neither is selling one that's deleted. That depends on the state and the dealership. Some will take them, some will not. I've shown evidence of this before and have sold my last 2 deleted trucks to a dealership. Neither cared.

You may design all kinds of equipment, but you didn't design the Ram, the Cummins, nor the aftermarket tunes so it isn't possible for you to know whether they are safe or not. Lay out the pros and cons, and let folks decide for themselves.

 

[Riccochet]

I wonder how many around here have designed vehicles? I'm not trolling. I do machinery design professionally.

There's nothing to "design". Engineers designed all the parts I buy when building a vehicle or engine.

By your standards no one should ever replaces the stock suspension on a Wrangler. Or swap to forged internals for forced induction. Billet driveshaft on a Hellcat? Why bother?! Right?

The engineers that design vehicles do so with a budget in mind. The bean counters tell them what they want to spend on a given part, and the engineers incorporate it regardless of if it's going to work or not. See "Hellcat driveshaft" above. They're garbage.

Removing the garbage emissions systems does nothing other than extend the life of the engine those components were attached to. Or Ford, GM and RAM wouldn't be building those trucks, sans emissions equipment, for government contracts.

 

[Choupique]

Lay out the pros and cons, and let folks decide for themselves.

I've laid out the pros and cons. As soon as you wheel out the cons, diesel bros start falling out the rafters when someone suggests it's a bad idea.

 

[Choupique]

There's nothing to "design". Engineers designed all the parts I buy when building a vehicle or engine

As well as the software that goes in them and how they interact with each other. Deleting requires modifying the only part of this whole equation that is inputting energy into the system. It's a big deal.

Ford, GM and RAM wouldn't be building those trucks, sans emissions equipment, for government contracts.

It's still a factory validated system, which is unquestionably more reliable than the more complex system involving the emissions equipment and removes the risk of limp mode.

Why bother?! Right?

If the goal is reliability then I agree, why mess with it?

 

[Riccochet]

As well as the software that goes in them and how they interact with each other. Deleting requires modifying the only part of this whole equation that is inputting energy into the system. It's a big deal.

Well, I guess you could argue that EGR is responsible for inputting energy in to the combustion chamber in the form of heat, raising combustion and exhaust gas temps, and being responsible for catastrophic piston failure. There are plenty of 100% stock Duramax's and Powerstroke's in junk yards due to melted pistons.

The other two systems, DEF and DPF, input nothing in to anything. They're restrictions on the exhaust system, raising EGT's and removing power.

Clearly engines are not your cup of tea.

 

[2003F350]

Well, I guess you could argue that EGR is responsible for inputting energy in to the combustion chamber in the form of heat, raising combustion and exhaust gas temps, and being responsible for catastrophic piston failure. There are plenty of 100% stock Duramax's and Powerstroke's in junk yards due to melted pistons.

The other two systems, DEF and DPF, input nothing in to anything. They're restrictions on the exhaust system, raising EGT's and removing power.

Clearly engines are not your cup of tea.

Machine builders tend to not really understand how internal combustion chambers work. I have done both and the crossover is limited at best. The equations are the same but applied differently.

 

[Choupique]

Clearly engines are not your cup of tea

Yea that must be it. I'll see myself out.

 

[nlambert182]

It's pretty simple. If you have evidence that all of these tunes are haphazardly developed and cause overwhelming failures across the board regardless of which setting is used, or if you have data from the tunes that shows the potential variances between a stock tune (fuel maps, timing, etc..) and an aftermarket post it up and let's discuss it. Otherwise it's just opinion and we all have our own. I don't have an issue with you simply laying out what you believe to be the pros and cons. My issues begin when people start being told they shouldn't do something because you believe it's bad. That introduces an opinion to data.

The pros and cons are simple and could be stated like the following:

Pros:
Potentially longer engine life (on a stock HP tune)
Potentially more reliable (on a stock HP tune)
Better mpg
Easier to work on without the added equipment in the way

Cons:
Not EPA legal
Won't pass smog in states that require emissions checks
Must carefully choose a tune from a reputable source or risk getting one that could cause damage
May not be able to sell the truck later in some areas unless put back to stock
Delete kits can be difficult to find, and as difficult to find someone to install if you can't DIY
Can easily blow up the engine or transmission if turning up the power without the supporting modifications


These are all factual statements and all can be proven with hard data. No opinion necessary.


I remember the days when the emissions crap was first being added to these trucks. The engines didn't change at all, but instead the emissions equipment was designed around the engine and then a different tune was designed. Equally.... it isn't difficult to find a reputable tuner that can tweak the emissions tune just enough to make it reliable and to omit the nanny systems. That shouldn't seem far fetched. There are smart people out there that make a fortune doing just this. They wouldn't stay in business if their tunes were detonating engines left and right.


It would be interesting to see data from Ford, GM, and Ram that compared pre-emissions diesel engines, post-emissions diesel engines, and post-emissions (but deleted on stock HP tunes) engines. I'd bet a dollar to a donut that you'll see reliability tank in the post-emissions (ESPECIALLY Ford) but then you'll see reliability move back in line with pre-emissions engines on the deleted trucks.

 

[Scottly]

I wonder how many around here have designed vehicles? I'm not trolling. I do machinery design professionally.

Show me a guy who engineers things, and I'll show you a guy who's tired of fixing his designs.

 

[Choupique]

That introduces an opinion to data

Nobody here has produced any data other than anecdotes and nobody will. It's the way most internet discussions go. I'm definitely not that worried about it. I can tell you the hot shot companies I deal with universally are opposed to deleting their trucks now.

The thing is, you can't discuss the reasons that it's a bad idea without getting run off with torches and pitchforks here or anywhere else. It needs to change.

 

[Scottly]

I'd bet a dollar to a donut that you'll see reliability tank in the post-emissions (ESPECIALLY Ford)

That's a given....The old 7.4L was a workhorse...The 6.0 designed to replace it was a disaster, and they've been trying to catch up ever since. And besides, it's a Ford...F'in Old Rebuilt Dodge.