Blackstone - used oil analysis

[HEMIMANN]

Neither does a proper engine need an oil with super additives. We've been over this point ad infinitum - Hemi engines are not 'proper' engines - they have a serious design defect, hence the need for super additive oil.

That's why we ended up with a racing oil instead of an everyday engine oil - to try to band aid the design defect.

My point is that there are 20 years of Hemi engines produced out there, sans how many have failed or retired, and one would think there would be more super oils available for so many engines in the wild. Kind of like why API created an entirely new oil quality category 'SP' for the new, small, GDI, turbocharged engines (single injector) that are prone to LSPI.

SP changed the detergent recipe of these oils specifically for this engine design exclusively, adding the more expensive magnesium detergent and reducing the less expensive calcium detergent, then applying to all engine types.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the Beemer 'Hurricane' engine - my projection is that such a small displacement engine with twin turbos will sheer the bejesus out of any vii oil, and cook it too due to the high temp of making a small engine work hard. I mean, even the Ford ecoboost in trucks is 3.7 liters, not 3.0 liters.

If Fiat and Peugeot think Americans are going to shell out excessive high prices for engines that don't last 100,000 miles, they got another thing coming - as we are seeing in their sales drops.

 

[Yardbird]

Neither does a proper engine need an oil with super additives. We've been over this point ad infinitum - Hemi engines are not 'proper' engines - they have a serious design defect, hence the need for super additive oil.

That's why we ended up with a racing oil instead of an everyday engine oil - to try to band aid the design defect.

My point is that there are 20 years of Hemi engines produced out there, sans how many have failed or retired, and one would think there would be more super oils available for so many engines in the wild. Kind of like why API created an entirely new oil quality category 'SP' for the new, small, GDI, turbocharged engines (single injector) that are prone to LSPI.

SP changed the detergent recipe of these oils specifically for this engine design exclusively, adding the more expensive magnesium detergent and reducing the less expensive calcium detergent, then applying to all engine types.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the Beemer 'Hurricane' engine - my projection is that such a small displacement engine with twin turbos will sheer the bejesus out of any vii oil, and cook it too due to the high temp of making a small engine work hard. I mean, even the Ford ecoboost in trucks is 3.7 liters, not 3.0 liters.

If Fiat and Peugeot think Americans are going to shell out excessive high prices for engines that don't last 100,000 miles, they got another thing coming - as we are seeing in their sales drops.

IMHO, the difference in companies making LSPI oil and not Hemi oil, is that LSPI is affecting engines while under warranty, costing manufacturers lots of money.

Most Hemi failures are past warranty. Meaning, Stellantis/Ram dealers are making lots of money repairing said Hemis.

Auto manufacturers are a huge source of income for oil makers, so they will make sure to keep them happy by making any blend the manufacturers want.

Most owners of used cars and trucks go to quick change places, and get whatever oil is in the tank.

 

[HEMIMANN]

IMHO, the difference in companies making LSPI oil and not Hemi oil, is that LSPI is affecting engines while under warranty, costing manufacturers lots of money.

Most Hemi failures are past warranty. Meaning, Stellantis/Ram dealers are making lots of money repairing said Hemis.

Auto manufacturers are a huge source of income for oil makers, so they will make sure to keep them happy by making any blend the manufacturers want.

Most owners of used cars and trucks go to quick change places, and get whatever oil is in the tank.

Good point, but back in the day, FCA was selling extended warranties for a lifetime - notice how they stopped that within years? Huh, I wonder why? lol

 

[HEMIMANN]

HPL SuperCar seems to be the recommended option on this forum, it's a Euro oil. I'm running the "no vii euro" right now, but plan to switch permanently to their cheapest "PCMO" (passenger car).

You have a 6.4 which recommends 0w-40, so that seems like a good choice especially with you being in AK.

All their oils are extremely good and if you're changing your oil every 5k miles then it's not going to really matter which one you pick. The more expensive ones have long legs, with one or two BITOG members running them out to 23k miles and just swapping out the filter every 5k. I'd never do that in a hemi, it's 5k to 7k regardless of what oil I'm running.

Both Premium+ and SuperCar have really good cold starting performance as well, Premium+ is an American/API oil and SuperCar is a Euro oil, they are at the top of their respective lines.

So the two different lines go like this:
PCMO, Premium PCMO, Premium+
Euro, SuperCar

Then they have "no vii" oils as well which contains both API/Euro blends but RF doesn't seem to like the "no vii" for some reason. The "no vii" means it doesn't contain any viscosity index improvers, stuff that thickens your oil as temps increase to allow it to span multiple grades; the advantage here is that it should be incredibly shear stable as there is no polymers to shear down. However, their regular oils don't shear down anyway so the "no vii" stuff isn't really needed. That oil was produced due to a request by several BITOG members.

The only one I wouldn't run is their "Euro Passenger Car Oil" as that is the one not containing any moly.

If you order (advlubrication.com), use "BITOG15" as a discount code to get 15% off.

If you want to run Redline instead, I believe @HEMIMANN swears by 5w-30 due to it not shearing as badly as the RL 0w-40. I'd be a little worried about cold start in AK with the 5w though.

Right. I ran Red Line 5W-30 during a hot summer while towing a 7,000 lb travel trailer up and down hills, sent in a UOA @ 4,600 mile OCI, along with a VOA from the same case of oil. Viscosity was identical. It's possible some volatility happened and offset by some sheardown, but that's a remote theory IMO. More likely there was zero shear down.

I did the same test with Red Line 0W-30 and had 8% shearing loss of Viscosity during winter without towing. Could be some volatility loss of Viscosity in this, and it's not exceptional for a 5,000 mile OCI, but generally validates my strategy of running RL 5W-30 summer and 0W-30 winter, at least in terms of proper Viscosity for the climate.
You can also run an oil heater, but there aren't plug ins everywhere I go, and temp generally settles back to ambient after an hour of sitting, esp when windy. Which is most of the time here. So I just run 0W-30 winter and don't bother with heaters.

 

[BLUKTY2]

I received a very prompt reply from Amsoil Tech Services and it is exactly what I expected and you were also spot on, @Hootbro:

Pete,
We do not recommend the use of any oil additives, and it voids our warranty.
Thank you,
AMSOIL Technical Services

@knightjp: Thank you for this information. I have considered the "cheap oil, change frequently" approach and while I think that this isn't a bad strategy, I prefer to stick to a high end oil and change at around 5,000 miles, maybe a little longer if I go with a HPL oil. I have not looked at the Amsoil XL but I will. I can get Amsoil locally for around $12.25-$12.50/qt. with the PC pricing and these are the main reasons that I have used it for as long as I have. Unless I can find my future oil of choice at Amazon (with their free shipping), I will be paying an exorbitant amount in shipping. It is over $90 to ship a case of HPL 4/1 gallon containers of oil to Alaska.

@ramffml: Thanks for the detailed information on the HPL oils. I really need to have a closer look at their oils, despite their initial cost and shipping charges. The 15% discount definitely sweetens the deal and if I feel comfortable using them to 6-7,000 miles this would also help offset the cost increase. I agree that it is probably wise to stick to a 0W oil in my climate so I'm looking for either a 0W-30 or 0W-40, if I can find a 0W-40 that doesn't shear excessively. I would prefer to have one oil that I can use year-round.

IIRC from all of the reading that I have done on this forum the Redline 0W-30 oil was reformulated awhile back and is maybe not the best choice for a Hemi. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong. RL 5W-30 is not off the table yet, and this might just prove to be fine for year-round use. Definitely a lot to consider with all of the oil choices out there.

 

[BLUKTY2]

Right. I ran Red Line 5W-30 during a hot summer while towing a 7,000 lb travel trailer up and down hills, sent in a UOA @ 4,600 mile OCI, along with a VOA from the same case of oil. Viscosity was identical. It's possible some volatility happened and offset by some sheardown, but that's a remote theory IMO. More likely there was zero shear down.

I did the same test with Red Line 0W-30 and had 8% shearing loss of Viscosity during winter without towing. Could be some volatility loss of Viscosity in this, and it's not exceptional for a 5,000 mile OCI, but generally validates my strategy of running RL 5W-30 summer and 0W-30 winter, at least in terms of proper Viscosity for the climate.
You can also run an oil heater, but there aren't plug ins everywhere I go, and temp generally settles back to ambient after an hour of sitting, esp when windy. Which is most of the time here. So I just run 0W-30 winter and don't bother with heaters.

Are you still running RL 0W-30 during the winter months? I thought that RL changed their formula on this one, not for the better. I sure could be mistaken- it comes with old age!

Like you, I often don't have the luxury of being able to use the block heater, unless I haul around a generator. I try to avoid getting caught out overnight in temperatures below around -10* F but it happens from time to time.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Are you still running RL 0W-30 during the winter months? I thought that RL changed their formula on this one, not for the better. I sure could be mistaken- it comes with old age!

Like you, I often don't have the luxury of being able to use the block heater, unless I haul around a generator. I try to avoid getting caught out overnight in temperatures below around -10* F but it happens from time to time.

Your memory is sound on this one - yes, RL did change formulation for 0W-30, ostensibly to make it an API 'SP' oil, for debatable reasons. Remember that Red Line was founded decades back as a race oil company, and 0W-30 sure isn't a race oil.

So, somebody at RL decided to make 0W-30 SP, which means change the detergent recipe to prevent LSPI, AND reduce viscosity for miniscule fuel savings - I think this was part of SP. So the concern was they would make it a thinner oil and maybe not have moly.

Somebody sent in an UOA and/or VOA and it showed vis wasn't really reduced and while it had less moly than previous, it still had sufficient (>250 ppm via my deduction), so would be ok.

I'm still pulling from my inventory of original 0W-30, this will be my final winter. I plan to buy again and send in a VOA at that time and report back.

Finally, I don't recall any 0W-40 that didn't shear via analysis, but maybe @Travis8352 reported one? There has been so much turmoil and change I can't remember it all, nor find it all. Anyway, I stay clear of ALL 0W-40's over concern of significant sheardown and corresponding deposits. It's just too wide of a viscosity range to be stable over a normal OCI, IMO.

My next 'project' is to report API 'SP' oil properties in a turbocharged GDI single injector engine. I don't have a Ram 'Hurricane' engine, but the architecture is the same - a boosted, direct-injected engine...very different than a Hemi engine. I will be looking for vii sheardown, fuel dilution, and soot dilution. My engine is a Mazda 2.5T GDI. Not sure where I'll put the report yet. Been using straight PUP 5W-30. Mazda requires 5W-30 in the turbo engine variant, 5W-20 for naturally aspirated. That speaks volumes to me. SP oils are low vis 30 weights to begin with.

 

[JHoward]

... and all this time, he owns a "whizz motor",lol.

 

[HEMIMANN]

... and all this time, he owns a "whizz motor",lol.

Yes, it's true - but at least I don't got a GD CVT!!! It's getting to the point where we've regressed to putting together a kiddee go kart with a Briggs and a Mercury clutch again.

 

[ramffml]

I'm curious about the Amsoil warranty. What exactly do they warranty, and under what conditions? If I was running Amsoil 5w-20 (factory fill spec) and I had a lifter issue while using their oil, they're not going to cover my engine? So what are they warrantying exactly.

 

[JHoward]

I'm curious about the Amsoil warranty. What exactly do they warranty, and under what conditions? If I was running Amsoil 5w-20 (factory fill spec) and I had a lifter issue while using their oil, they're not going to cover my engine? So what are they warrantying exactly.

Imo, Amsoil isn't going to warranty their "oil" IF any additive is added and something should happen to where an engine implodes?

 

[JHoward]

It's getting to the point where we've regressed to putting together a kiddee go kart with a Briggs and a Mercury clutch again.

Yep, absolutely. We know how we've regressed to that point. We're not allowed to discuss that, though.

 

[HEMIMANN]

I'm curious about the Amsoil warranty. What exactly do they warranty, and under what conditions? If I was running Amsoil 5w-20 (factory fill spec) and I had a lifter issue while using their oil, they're not going to cover my engine? So what are they warrantying exactly.

They warrant they have more lawyers than you.

 

[Hootbro]

I'm curious about the Amsoil warranty. What exactly do they warranty, and under what conditions? If I was running Amsoil 5w-20 (factory fill spec) and I had a lifter issue while using their oil, they're not going to cover my engine? So what are they warrantying exactly.

Amsoil or for that matter any major label oil maker actually having oil that is subpar when proper grade, spec and service intervals are adhered to, is practically zero. Where Amsoil warranty comes into play is backing their oil in the case a dealership or other service provider that carte blanche wants to put any lubricated part mechanical failure on the oil without proof. Amsoil has dealt plenty with these types of cases and either through direct legal contact or provided info to the customer to push back on these types of claims. If one though throws in a additive, Amsoil in good faith cannot back their oil that is now out of specification beyond their control.

 

[Burla]

Funny, since they say this...

U.S. FEDERAL LAW​

• It is illegal to tie warranty coverage to whichever brand of parts or lubricants you use. Manufacturers that do so must provide the parts or lubricants free of charge

So amsoil says you cant use an additive mixed with their oil or they deny it, hmm. Not that I blame them but maybe their pr people should be trained better what to write on their website.

I don't see their warranty does anyone have a link or page?

 

[BLUKTY2]

Your memory is sound on this one - yes, RL did change formulation for 0W-30, ostensibly to make it an API 'SP' oil, for debatable reasons. Remember that Red Line was founded decades back as a race oil company, and 0W-30 sure isn't a race oil.

So, somebody at RL decided to make 0W-30 SP, which means change the detergent recipe to prevent LSPI, AND reduce viscosity for miniscule fuel savings - I think this was part of SP. So the concern was they would make it a thinner oil and maybe not have moly.

Somebody sent in an UOA and/or VOA and it showed vis wasn't really reduced and while it had less moly than previous, it still had sufficient (>250 ppm via my deduction), so would be ok.

I'm still pulling from my inventory of original 0W-30, this will be my final winter. I plan to buy again and send in a VOA at that time and report back.

Finally, I don't recall any 0W-40 that didn't shear via analysis, but maybe @Travis8352 reported one? There has been so much turmoil and change I can't remember it all, nor find it all. Anyway, I stay clear of ALL 0W-40's over concern of significant sheardown and corresponding deposits. It's just too wide of a viscosity range to be stable over a normal OCI, IMO.

My next 'project' is to report API 'SP' oil properties in a turbocharged GDI single injector engine. I don't have a Ram 'Hurricane' engine, but the architecture is the same - a boosted, direct-injected engine...very different than a Hemi engine. I will be looking for vii sheardown, fuel dilution, and soot dilution. My engine is a Mazda 2.5T GDI. Not sure where I'll put the report yet. Been using straight PUP 5W-30. Mazda requires 5W-30 in the turbo engine variant, 5W-20 for naturally aspirated. That speaks volumes to me. SP oils are low vis 30 weights to begin with.

Glad to know that I haven't lost it all yet!

I agree with you on the 0W-40 oils; my UOA on the SS 0w-40 certainly confirmed my suspicions. This oil is not even stable in a short OCI; can you imagine how much this oil would probably shear if I had used it for Amsoil's claims of 15,000 miles with severe duty use? While I have it in the engine now, I don't plan on exceeding 2-2,500 miles with it. By then I need to have a replacement oil in my inventory.

With the cost difference for me between the RL and HPL, plus not really knowing how the "new and improved" RL 0W-30 will fare in a Hemi, one of the HPL oils is sounding better and better for my needs, at least through the coming winter.

I am curious to see your report on your next project as I too own a "whizz motor" that specs a 0W-20 for the NA market but I am using PUP 5W-30, even during the warrantee period. I just did my third oil change at 10,000 miles and I will do a UOA on the oil when I change it again at 15,000 miles. Seems to me that a timing chain, turbocharger, fuel dilution and severe duty usage= hard on oil.

 

[BLUKTY2]

I don't see their warranty does anyone have a link or page?

https://www.amsoil.com/about/guarantee/

https://www.amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/g1363.pdf

 

[Burla]

https://www.amsoil.com/about/guarantee/

https://www.amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/g1363.pdf

Yes I posted that, but I don't see anywhere were they warranty a vehicle failed part if you use their oil.

 

[BLUKTY2]

This was all that I could find.

 

[knightjp]

@BLUKTY2 What does the local Ram dealer use when vehicles go to them for an oil change.
Over here in Dubai, we have to worry about intense heat. I found out that the dealer uses Mopar 5w30 when vehicles go to them for an oil change; even when the manual calls for 5w20.
I don’t know if anyone here will agree with me on this, but the HEMI is pretty much an old school style V8 and therefore you notice that guys who treat it like an old classic V8, seem to not have any issues with it.