Blackstone - used oil analysis

[ramffml]

Glad to know that I haven't lost it all yet!

I agree with you on the 0W-40 oils; my UOA on the SS 0w-40 certainly confirmed my suspicions. This oil is not even stable in a short OCI; can you imagine how much this oil would probably shear if I had used it for Amsoil's claims of 15,000 miles with severe duty use? While I have it in the engine now, I don't plan on exceeding 2-2,500 miles with it. By then I need to have a replacement oil in my inventory.

With the cost difference for me between the RL and HPL, plus not really knowing how the "new and improved" RL 0W-30 will fare in a Hemi, one of the HPL oils is sounding better and better for my needs, at least through the coming winter.

What is "severe duty use" for you? Guys on BITOG seem to recommend the 0w-40 SuperCar from HPL if that's the brand you want to go with.

They also claim it won't shear down, none of their oils do.

There is a thread where Wayne ran CK-4 5w-20 in a Pentastar for 33k miles with just filter changes every 5k. Not advisable in a hemi, but I'd be very surprised if anybody reports shearing with HPL as they use extremely high quality polymers, this is stuff you don't find in walmart oil.

The UOA's I've seen, including my own of their cheapest PCMO, the viscosity doesn't change or if it does it gets slightly thicker than v|rgin oil due to oxidative thickening.

So a few data points, PCMO 5w-20, the data sheet says it should be at 8.8 cSt@100C and my UOA showed 9.1 after ~6200 miles.

Second data point, P+ 0w-30, data sheet says 10 cST and my UOA showed 10.21 after ~8200 miles.

If you want I can PM you the email of one of the reps at HPL and just talk to him, tell him where you live, what your needs are, and he'll recommend an oil; and you may be pleasantly surprised because they don't just recommend the most expensive stuff either unless there is a case for it.

 

[BLUKTY2]

@BLUKTY2 What does the local Ram dealer use when vehicles go to them for an oil change.
Over here in Dubai, we have to worry about intense heat. I found out that the dealer uses Mopar 5w30 when vehicles go to them for an oil change; even when the manual calls for 5w20.
I don’t know if anyone here will agree with me on this, but the HEMI is pretty much an old school style V8 and therefore you notice that guys who treat it like an old classic V8, seem to not have any issues with it.

When I bought my RAM (new), I purchased an oil change plan that included up to 5 changes per year, regardless of milage. It was about $800-850 at the time. They actually used the factory specified PUP 0W-40. I used this service for 4 years and 10 oil changes. Then my life situation changed dramatically and the dealers "quick lube" service became anything but quick so that's when I changed to Amsoil SS 0W-40 and started to change the oil myself.

What is "severe duty use" for you? Guys on BITOG seem to recommend the 0w-40 SuperCar from HPL if that's the brand you want to go with.

They also claim it won't shear down, none of their oils do.

There is a thread where Wayne ran CK-4 5w-20 in a Pentastar for 33k miles with just filter changes every 5k. Not advisable in a hemi, but I'd be very surprised if anybody reports shearing with HPL as they use extremely high quality polymers, this is stuff you don't find in walmart oil.

The UOA's I've seen, including my own of their cheapest PCMO, the viscosity doesn't change or if it does it gets slightly thicker than v|rgin oil due to oxidative thickening.

So a few data points, PCMO 5w-20, the data sheet says it should be at 8.8 cSt@100C and my UOA showed 9.1 after ~6200 miles.

Second data point, P+ 0w-30, data sheet says 10 cST and my UOA showed 10.21 after ~8200 miles.

If you want I can PM you the email of one of the reps at HPL and just talk to him, tell him where you live, what your needs are, and he'll recommend an oil; and you may be pleasantly surprised because they don't just recommend the most expensive stuff either unless there is a case for it.

I suppose that the definition of "severe duty use" is subjective. But for me, my RAM carries a heavy camper for at least 98% of the time. Rarely is the camper offloaded from the truck. 50% of that time, in addition to the camper, I tow a pretty light trailer, about 1,500#'s. I drive in mountainous terrain, lots of gravel (dusty when dry) roads and I drive it fast and hard whenever I can. Cold starts without the benefit of using the engine block heater are common, easily down to -10 or -15* F during the long winter months. I really try to avoid camping in temperatures this cold but it happens. Sometimes much colder; -25 to -35* F. This may not be considered severe duty use by some but it is to me.

Are the guys on BITOG using this SC 0W-40 oil in a Hemi? Maybe I need to spend more time there but I just don't like the atmosphere...... MUCH better here!

Thank you for sharing your personal results with using HPL oils. I spent quite a bit of time today on the Advanced Lubricants website looking at their engine oil options and when I consider all of the information that I have gathered (tech specs, personal testimonials, etc.) I am really impressed with their products.

And I gladly accept your offer to connect with a HPL rep. I will be looking for a PM from you.

 

[ramffml]

When I bought my RAM (new), I purchased an oil change plan that included up to 5 changes per year, regardless of milage. It was about $800-850 at the time. They actually used the factory specified PUP 0W-40. I used this service for 4 years and 10 oil changes. Then my life situation changed dramatically and the dealers "quick lube" service became anything but quick so that's when I changed to Amsoil SS 0W-40 and started to change the oil myself.

I suppose that the definition of "severe duty use" is subjective. But for me, my RAM carries a heavy camper for at least 98% of the time. Rarely is the camper offloaded from the truck. 50% of that time, in addition to the camper, I tow a pretty light trailer, about 1,500#'s. I drive in mountainous terrain, lots of gravel (dusty when dry) roads and I drive it fast and hard whenever I can. Cold starts without the benefit of using the engine block heater are common, easily down to -10 or -15* F during the long winter months. I really try to avoid camping in temperatures this cold but it happens. Sometimes much colder; -25 to -35* F. This may not be considered severe duty use by some but it is to me.

Are the guys on BITOG using this SC 0W-40 oil in a Hemi? Maybe I need to spend more time there but I just don't like the atmosphere...... MUCH better here!

Thank you for sharing your personal results with using HPL oils. I spent quite a bit of time today on the Advanced Lubricants website looking at their engine oil options and when I consider all of the information that I have gathered (tech specs, personal testimonials, etc.) I am really impressed with their products.

And I gladly accept your offer to connect with a HPL rep. I will be looking for a PM from you.

BITOG can be interesting at times, and there are some scraps that can turn people away but they have some really great content appearing as well from guys who work directly in the industry. Can definitely learn a lot there.

 

[BLUKTY2]

Earlier today I emailed a rep for HPL (thanks @ramffml) to get their recommendation on which of their oil to use in my specific situation. I was very specific as to the engines oil use history (oils used, change intervals), the climate that it operates in, how I use the truck etc. I also pointed out that the Hemi's have a reputation of wiping out lifters/cams and inadequate lubrication is likely a key contributing factor and that the Hemi's seem to do well with high levels of moly.

Here is the guts of our correspondence. This is most of the first reply;

"Okay - the HPL PC Euro 5W40 is what I recommend.
I use the 5W40 in my turbo diesels here in the heat of Houston - so I personally know the high end works well.

For the low end- these have a pour point of -71 F which means they will flow well at temps to -40-45.

Choosing the 5W40 over a 0W40 as this will reduce any viscosity changes due to mechanical means - ie oil pump gears, cam followers, etc."

I still had a few questions so the emails continued. My questions;

"Thank you for the fast response and recommendation. The Euro 5W-40 doesn’t surprise me but I have two more questions:

1) Given my usage, what do you think is a realistic change interval? Keep in mind that I really don’t intend to push this (never have) but could I expect to get 6-7,000 miles safely?
2) I have discovered some Euro oils have little to no moly. What is the moly ppm of this oil?"

The response;

"There are many forms of moly - the solid form looks like graphite and can be very abrasive in an engine oil formulation.
I used to sell industrial lubricants and called on Climax Molybdenum - largest N American mfg of moly.

In the plant they sued to move the powered solid moly via screw conveyorss - the steel screws would be worn out in a year or so. So I would not recommend this type of moly in an engine oil.

We use a synthesized synthetic moly - but in this case the Euro does not contain moly if my recollection is correct.

But it is a very stout oil that I run in my Audi TDI’s and my Cummins 24 Valve TURBO DIESEL.

The drain interval is dependent on contamination and operating conditions. If kept clean - the oil is a 10-15K oil change interval."

So this is where I stand now. I am pleased and impressed with the fast responses; for me this is a very clear indication that the company cares about customer service. Something that seems to have been lost over the years.

I am curious to know what the collective knowledge of the folks here think about this oil. The rep uses it in turbo diesels, I would use it in a NA gas engine and it has no moly. I have learned from my research that at least some, if not most, of the Euro oils are formulated for use in both diesel and gas engines so this probably isn't an issue. And while the rep states that the OCI can be up to 10-15K miles, I don't plan on going over 8,000 regardless of what oil I use.

I look forward to any and all thoughts/opinions on this.

 

[CanuckRam1313]

I use HPL SC 0W30 in my truck, and in the winter especially, it really makes for nice gentle cold starts.

I've bounced back and forth between this oil and RL HP 5W30, and in the summer heat this oil really shines.

The HPL SC has longer OCI capabilities vs the RL HP, but both are top tier oils for our trucks.

I also use the RP 20-820 oil filter as well.

I agree that the customer service from HPL is unparalleled. Getting product shipped to Ontario Canada was not cut & dry as one would think it would be. But, HPL sure made the process gentle and as cost effective as it could be.

 

[ramffml]

Earlier today I emailed a rep for HPL (thanks @ramffml) to get their recommendation on which of their oil to use in my specific situation. I was very specific as to the engines oil use history (oils used, change intervals), the climate that it operates in, how I use the truck etc. I also pointed out that the Hemi's have a reputation of wiping out lifters/cams and inadequate lubrication is likely a key contributing factor and that the Hemi's seem to do well with high levels of moly.

Here is the guts of our correspondence. This is most of the first reply;

"Okay - the HPL PC Euro 5W40 is what I recommend.
I use the 5W40 in my turbo diesels here in the heat of Houston - so I personally know the high end works well.

For the low end- these have a pour point of -71 F which means they will flow well at temps to -40-45.

Choosing the 5W40 over a 0W40 as this will reduce any viscosity changes due to mechanical means - ie oil pump gears, cam followers, etc."

I still had a few questions so the emails continued. My questions;

"Thank you for the fast response and recommendation. The Euro 5W-40 doesn’t surprise me but I have two more questions:

1) Given my usage, what do you think is a realistic change interval? Keep in mind that I really don’t intend to push this (never have) but could I expect to get 6-7,000 miles safely?
2) I have discovered some Euro oils have little to no moly. What is the moly ppm of this oil?"

The response;

"There are many forms of moly - the solid form looks like graphite and can be very abrasive in an engine oil formulation.
I used to sell industrial lubricants and called on Climax Molybdenum - largest N American mfg of moly.

In the plant they sued to move the powered solid moly via screw conveyorss - the steel screws would be worn out in a year or so. So I would not recommend this type of moly in an engine oil.

We use a synthesized synthetic moly - but in this case the Euro does not contain moly if my recollection is correct.

But it is a very stout oil that I run in my Audi TDI’s and my Cummins 24 Valve TURBO DIESEL.

The drain interval is dependent on contamination and operating conditions. If kept clean - the oil is a 10-15K oil change interval."

So this is where I stand now. I am pleased and impressed with the fast responses; for me this is a very clear indication that the company cares about customer service. Something that seems to have been lost over the years.

I am curious to know what the collective knowledge of the folks here think about this oil. The rep uses it in turbo diesels, I would use it in a NA gas engine and it has no moly. I have learned from my research that at least some, if not most, of the Euro oils are formulated for use in both diesel and gas engines so this probably isn't an issue. And while the rep states that the OCI can be up to 10-15K miles, I don't plan on going over 8,000 regardless of what oil I use.

I look forward to any and all thoughts/opinions on this.

So just to be clear, they sell "PC(MO) Euro", and "Super Car", both of these use a "euro" ad pack but he's not recommending Super Car, he's recommending the cheaper stuff which is the one we talked about earlier not containing any moly.

This gets back to the point Burla or Hemimann made earlier about reps from HPL/Redline/Amsoil etc not knowing the history of the Hemi and the trials done here with high quality oils containing moly. The oils they choose/recommend are great oils for almost any engine, but for the hemi it might not be all that great, we just don't know.

So this is your call, personally I'd choose their Super Car over the PC Euro due to the large amounts of moly, and Super Car 5w-40 also has the exact same pour point at -71F.

 

[gfh77665]

HPL is a great oil. No one debates that. But everyone needs to understand how BITOG works. They get site sponsors, there is nothing wrong with that. But then whoever is the latest new sponsor always has THE greatest product...ever! First its one product, then another, then another. Now its HPL that gets vigorously promoted on BITOG.

Again its a great oil. Its also very expensive. Do the math and decide if HPL is worth over 2X-3X what some other brand name oil costs. Compare it to something like QSUD. Do you really get 2X-3X the benefit? For me its a resounding no!

 

[ramffml]

HPL is a great oil. No one debates that. But everyone needs to understand how BITOG works. They get site sponsors, there is nothing wrong with that. But then whoever is the latest new sponsor always has THE greatest product...ever! First its one product, then another, then another. Now its HPL that gets vigorously promoted on BITOG.

Again its a great oil. Its also very expensive. Do the math and decide if HPL is worth over 2X-3X what some other brand name oil costs. Compare it to something like QSUD. Do you really get 2X-3X the benefit? For me its a resounding no!

That's not how I see it at all. In a large diverse group (bitog/reddit) you will find fans promoting a product, but it doesn't mean they all "jumped ship" to the "latest and greatest" everytime a new product is introduced. New fans promote new products, but the older products are still loved by their respective fans.

VRP is the latest on BITOG, not HPL. You will not find many (any?) guys that went from HPL to VRP, at least not any that I can see. And you will still find many Amsoil fans on BITOG etc.

That's just the zoomed out view of how it works.

Specifically HPL, if you look into why the product is praised, you'll find reasons that are compelling. It's not hype, these reasons are real.

Hemi issues aside, you could comfortably run some of HPL's oils out to 20k to 30k miles if you wanted, all backed up by science/UOAs. There are reports of fleet customers saving money with HPL despite the higher upfront cost, they can run the oil longer and the vehicle is down in the shop far less for maintenance etc. One guy uses it in his large Caterpillar diesel engines (didn't say what they do) and also reported significant savings. All their oils clean exceptionally well, most off the shelf oils don't clean at all or at best don't add deposits.

HPL doesn't care about BITOG in the slightest. The CEO (David Ward) is an oil enthusiast and that brought him into the site but we (BITOG or individual consumers) are not their target customer. We're just a side thing for them bringing in a small percentage of revenue. Their business is large customers, fleets, racing, and mostly industrial lubricants. They're not trying to sell to the small guys like you and I, they do but were not really their target.

As corny as it sounds, my truck gets the best money can buy. Best oils, best filters, best gas, highest octane, all maintained and changed well before the owner's manual suggests.

You may as well suggest its a waste of money to wash your truck more than once a year as after 20 years your paint will look no different than mine, but my truck gets washed far more often than that.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Molybdenum is an element, it is not found in a pure state in nature - it is reported as an element via spectral analysis of oils, but that's not how it's added to oils.

Neither is the solid dry lubricant MoS2 (Molybdenum Disulfide) added to oils like it is to greases. The oil-soluble form MoDTC (not writing on the long name) is added to oils. It stays in solution until sufficient localized friction heat causes it to react on the surface and plate out as MoS2.

If you search MoDTC within this thread there is much discussion about this additive, along with friction reduction concentration data provided by @Burla

 

[BLUKTY2]

So just to be clear, they sell "PC(MO) Euro", and "Super Car", both of these use a "euro" ad pack but he's not recommending Super Car, he's recommending the cheaper stuff which is the one we talked about earlier not containing any moly.

This gets back to the point Burla or Hemimann made earlier about reps from HPL/Redline/Amsoil etc not knowing the history of the Hemi and the trials done here with high quality oils containing moly. The oils they choose/recommend are great oils for almost any engine, but for the hemi it might not be all that great, we just don't know.

So this is your call, personally I'd choose their Super Car over the PC Euro due to the large amounts of moly, and Super Car 5w-40 also has the exact same pour point at -71F.

Thank you for the clarification! I think that it has been well proven that the Hemi's do well on oils with a high moly content and I am hesitant to try an oil that has little to no moly.

For what I paid for this truck, and what I would have to pay to replace it, I feel that it is worth the extra cost of a high end oil, especially if I can extend out the oci's from 5,000 to 7 or maybe 8,000 miles.

 

[Shawn Burns]

I completed my first blackstone analysis after about 70k miles. Could get some interpretation of the results?

I used valvoline extended protection 5w-30 with 32 oz of lubeguard. I also ran two bottles of redline SI-1 during the previous tank of fuel prior to the oil change.

 

[Burla]

I completed my first blackstone analysis after about 70k miles. Could get some interpretation of the results?

I used valvoline extended protection 5w-30 with 32 oz of lubeguard. I also ran two bottles of redline SI-1 during the previous tank of fuel prior to the oil change.

Literally perfect, very nice report. The insolubles be a tad over zero is most likely from si-1 doing some cleaning but could just be normal as well.

You could repost w/o personal info, they have a way to do that at Blackstone.

 

[Shawn Burns]

Thanks. I guess she is a keeper long term. This analysis was the decision point to whether this truck remains permanently a part of my family.

 

[Burla]

Send the kids pee sample to blackstone, maybe they can let you know if they are keepers too.

 

[Shawn Burns]

Send the kids pee sample to blackstone, maybe they can let you know if they are keepers too.

Nope, I'm sending them fish back! They ain't keepers!

 

[Travis8352]

Your memory is sound on this one - yes, RL did change formulation for 0W-30, ostensibly to make it an API 'SP' oil, for debatable reasons. Remember that Red Line was founded decades back as a race oil company, and 0W-30 sure isn't a race oil.

So, somebody at RL decided to make 0W-30 SP, which means change the detergent recipe to prevent LSPI, AND reduce viscosity for miniscule fuel savings - I think this was part of SP. So the concern was they would make it a thinner oil and maybe not have moly.

Somebody sent in an UOA and/or VOA and it showed vis wasn't really reduced and while it had less moly than previous, it still had sufficient (>250 ppm via my deduction), so would be ok.

I'm still pulling from my inventory of original 0W-30, this will be my final winter. I plan to buy again and send in a VOA at that time and report back.

Finally, I don't recall any 0W-40 that didn't shear via analysis, but maybe @Travis8352 reported one? There has been so much turmoil and change I can't remember it all, nor find it all. Anyway, I stay clear of ALL 0W-40's over concern of significant sheardown and corresponding deposits. It's just too wide of a viscosity range to be stable over a normal OCI, IMO.

My next 'project' is to report API 'SP' oil properties in a turbocharged GDI single injector engine. I don't have a Ram 'Hurricane' engine, but the architecture is the same - a boosted, direct-injected engine...very different than a Hemi engine. I will be looking for vii sheardown, fuel dilution, and soot dilution. My engine is a Mazda 2.5T GDI. Not sure where I'll put the report yet. Been using straight PUP 5W-30. Mazda requires 5W-30 in the turbo engine variant, 5W-20 for naturally aspirated. That speaks volumes to me. SP oils are low vis 30 weights to begin with.

The best ive seen is HPL supercar 0w40 that ended around 13.8 cst in an SRT 6.4. I think it starts around 14.1-14.3 but i cant quite remember

 

[Yardbird]

VOA of Rotella T6 Diesel/Gas oil - 5w30. Thoughts?

Images from BITOG

 

[Burla]

I think rotella makes a better multi vehicle oil then they do a HD oil.

 

[gfh77665]

VRP is the latest on BITOG, not HPL. You will not find many (any?) guys that went from HPL to VRP, at least not any that I can see. And you will still find many Amsoil fans on BITOG etc.

Differeniate between the general BITOG posters and BITOG staff.

BITOG staff / moderators are head over heels in love with site sponsor HPL. They are not head over heels in love with VRP.

Reverse that for the general posters, who really like VRP. The VRP thread there is over 50 pages long.

 

[ramffml]

Differeniate between the general BITOG posters and BITOG staff.

BITOG staff / moderators are head over heels in love with site sponsor HPL. They are not head over heels in love with VRP.

The oil deserves its fans, mods or not, it just so happens that the mods know their stuff and recognize the quality. They also appear to be wealthy and love quality, that's exactly who is attracted to HPL; people who want a no holds barred oil and are willing to pay for the oil, the transparency, and the service.

One of them didn't like the oil he was running in his 3.0 diesel, the oil was evaporating off the top of the piston while towing because it got so hot. So he asked HPL for a change, and their going to give him a custom blend. Do you think valvoline would do that or literally any other high quality oil blender?

Not just the mods either, another guy asked for a blend to run in his Jeep and they blended it for him and even named it after his username.

Another group of guys were discussing how they didn't like all the VII's in oil so they were wondering if it was possible to blend a 5w-30 without VII and guess what, HPL delivered it within a week or two "no vii euro" is now a thing, just for them, because they asked.

Reverse that for the general posters, who really like VRP. The VRP thread there is over 50 pages long.

That's just one thread with the same guys posting over and over, VRP has its fans but a large portion of the fans are there due to the price which is understandable; not everyone can or wants to pay for this. I believe VRP to be good at cleaning, but that appears to be its biggest attribute. How does it stand up to wear, shearing, engine runtime and everything else.

There are many more non mods that are happy with HPL, and not every mod runs HPL either. Wayne would be one of the most prominent but again look at him and what he values in an oil. He's not into HPL because they're a sponsor, he's into HPL because it delivers in spades and he values that.