When Not to Use Redline Thread

[Hemi395]

The only thing with that is the 50psi oil pressure we see is from the sender which is right near the oil filter. The lifters and cam I doubt are seeing anywhere near that...

 

[Burla]

EP additives plate, and that plate is what is stopping the side pressure. It is no joke, the white paper is clear, friction whcih no doubt what hemi tick is goes away with EP additives. Redline is the highest moly oil we've seen.

We will need a new name for bandaid?

Coefficient of friction with high moly at temp.. that is no joke



Notice cam wear is going even lower, and add hemi tick and 500ppm moly, I'd wager the wear level will be way lower then anything on this graph..

 

[ramffml]

We had a forum member bring us the metallurgy report and theory from the engineer, this is what makes sense to me, I have no info on the why. We have people call it a bandaid because of feelings? I'm not at all criticizing, this would be my initial tendency as well. But we've had the worst hemi's (ones that tick) in a large group here, and none have needed lifters because they killed those ticks with a high additive high viscosity formula. If no redline any guess to how many of those would have failed already? More then zero would be my bet. You use a bandaid until a cut heals, well hemi tick never heals, so it is indeed a strategy to deal with it and so far knock wood it seams to be working.

I don't mean "bandaid" as in "ineffective", just that RL is holding the problem at bay rather than actually fixing the problem. I think if your hemi ticks, you add RL and run it for a year and then pull the lifters, you will still see some sort of physical damage to the lifter even though the sound stopped with RL. Of course if you can run RL and never have to pull the lifters/cam, does it really matter whether we label it as "fix" or "bandaid", it's just semantics at that point and I of course will happily run RL as long as we see good results from it.

The only thing with that is the 50psi oil pressure we see is from the sender which is right near the oil filter. The lifters and cam I doubt are seeing anywhere near that...

Fair enough, but again if it was lack of oil pressure, then we would not see 1 or 2 lifter failures in an engine, whereas the others in that engine are all 100% perfect. We also would not see some hemis reaching 200,000+ miles with no tick whatsoever and a few failing at < 40,000 miles.

That's been my meter all this time; if we bring a theory it has to explain not only the failures, but the reason why some never fail, even in the same engine. The failures are competely random, different lifter numbers in different engines etc.

 

[mdc1990zr1]

I don't mean "bandaid" as in "ineffective", just that RL is holding the problem at bay rather than actually fixing the problem. I think if your hemi ticks, you add RL and run it for a year and then pull the lifters, you will still see some sort of physical damage to the lifter even though the sound stopped with RL. Of course if you can run RL and never have to pull the lifters/cam, does it really matter whether we label it as "fix" or "bandaid", it's just semantics at that point and I of course will happily run RL as long as we see good results from it.



Fair enough, but again if it was lack of oil pressure, then we would not see 1 or 2 lifter failures in an engine, whereas the others in that engine are all 100% perfect. We also would not see some hemis reaching 200,000+ miles with no tick whatsoever and a few failing at < 40,000 miles.

That's been my meter all this time; if we bring a theory it has to explain not only the failures, but the reason why some never fail, even in the same engine. The failures are competely random, different lifter numbers in different engines etc.

The 5.7 Hemi was designed on a 5w30 oil at the time of development API SJ or SL. RedLine 5W30 must be close to that additive wise.
With the addition of MDS and VVT, the 5.7 Hemi was later slated by Dodge to run a 5W20 oil with "later" API certifications with a longer oil change interval. This is the range of Hemis with the failing lifters and camshafts. I believe this "better" oil and lighter viscosity, later API certifications and longer OCI is the contributing factor to high iron content which is leading to the lifter failure. RedLine 5W30 from the beginning with a moderate OCI of maybe 5000 miles is probably the "fix" if used from the beginning. Years of 5W20 and long OCI with the later API certifications leads to too much metal on metal, high iron content in the Blackstone reports, and the damage already done. Redline 5W30 at this point, is probably the "bandaid".
I still think you can use 5W20 with the currant certs, but the OCI would be ridiculously short. Fresh PUP 5W20 barely made it to 2000 miles before I started to have the Hemi tick. A few seconds of tick on startup after a few days in a row, and I would just change the oil. Fresh PUP 5W20, leaving the old oil filter on, kept the tick away for about another 2000 miles. The question is......is the PUP bad at 2000 miles or how soon before that?
There have been too many positive reports about the RedLine on the forum not to take advantage of the results, so I do a 50:50 mix with PUP 20 weight in the winter and 30 weight in the summer, and I have no tick at all.

 

[MontanaHandyman]

Say Burla...my wife drives a toyota with a v6 with VVT. There's no ticking, etc., but wondering what your take would be on, if not running full RL, at least adding a quart or so of RL to the oil that I use in that engine (can't remember...M1 I think) Presently been adding Lubegard...should I just stick with that? Or would there be any benefit adding some RL since it has the ester base?

 

[Burla]

Say Burla...my wife drives a toyota with a v6 with VVT. There's no ticking, etc., but wondering what your take would be on, if not running full RL, at least adding a quart or so of RL to the oil that I use in that engine (can't remember...M1 I think) Presently been adding Lubegard...should I just stick with that? Or would there be any benefit adding some RL since it has the ester base?

My wife has a 4 ****** rav 4, I run PUP 5w30. I think she doesn't have any need for a high performance oil, maybe not even lubegard. My wifes was a rattle trap that is why I use 5w30, it calls for 5w20, now very smooth. I even tried redline 5w20, but PUP 5w30 was way smoother, proves the point in most vehicles viscosity is the only real consideration, and not additives or ester base. If it is running smooth, I'd stick to m1 as I do like that oil. If you feel so motivated dropping a 10 ouncer of lubegard aint gonna hurt anything. Personally, I'm not using redline unless there was a reason, high revving engine, a harley, or a need for a HP oil like we see in high wear hemi's. When I run out of stock, I'm moving her toyota over to kirkland 5w30, great oil and better price.

 

[Travis8352]

Lack of oil pressure isn't the problem though, we all running at what, 50+ psi? So it's not being starved of oil.

And again, if it were a design flaw like that, ALL our hemis would be toast, but only a very small percentage is.

Has to be a different reason.

And also, I think we're not putting enough emphasis on the hints from FCA. They reworked the lifters, and that was their "fix". Would they spend all that money on that fix if they knew it wasn't the problem? Or would they spend that money and just "hope for the best"? That doesn't add up for me, for me all the signs point to faulty lifters, poor quality control. Keep in mind GM's v8's are suffering from the same problem (failing lifters) and their engines are completely different designs.

They redesigned the lifter when was it 2016 i forget? My guess is since the hellcat lifters are the exact same part number as all the other hemi lifters maybe they just redesigned the lifter for the coming hellcat.

 

[Hemi395]

I don't mean "bandaid" as in "ineffective", just that RL is holding the problem at bay rather than actually fixing the problem. I think if your hemi ticks, you add RL and run it for a year and then pull the lifters, you will still see some sort of physical damage to the lifter even though the sound stopped with RL. Of course if you can run RL and never have to pull the lifters/cam, does it really matter whether we label it as "fix" or "bandaid", it's just semantics at that point and I of course will happily run RL as long as we see good results from it.



Fair enough, but again if it was lack of oil pressure, then we would not see 1 or 2 lifter failures in an engine, whereas the others in that engine are all 100% perfect. We also would not see some hemis reaching 200,000+ miles with no tick whatsoever and a few failing at < 40,000 miles.

That's been my meter all this time; if we bring a theory it has to explain not only the failures, but the reason why some never fail, even in the same engine. The failures are competely random, different lifter numbers in different engines etc.

Totally get what you're saying. Personally I think its a combination of some bad cams, bad lifter rollers, and lack of proper lubrication especially at idle. Then you go and throw in 10k oil changes like the oil life meter wants you to do and you have a bad recipie for cam/lifter failure with the 2009+ hemis.

 

[Travis8352]

Totally get what you're saying. Personally I think its a combination of some bad cams, bad lifter rollers, and lack of proper lubrication especially at idle. Then you go and throw in 10k oil changes like the oil life meter wants you to do and you have a bad recipie for cam/lifter failure with the 2009+ hemis.

Its multiple things i agree. If it were just soft cams the failure rate would be sky high and we probabaly would have a manufacture date range for the bad cams. My only experience with a failed hemi lifter is i held a bad one in my hands out of a friends truck and it had no scuffing on the lifter body but had no needlebearings left in the roller. But it was covered in oil

 

[Burla]

I'm not sure why we would assume it is bad cam hardening when that is something you can test, so where is the proof? We do have proof that disputes that on a worn cam, metal was hard on the rockwell scale. The fact there is hemi tick should lead you away from the idea the cam has anything to do with it. The only issue is what is making these tick, that's it. Even if the cam was soft, that wouldn't lead to hemi tick. If it was the cam being soft, the lob would hit the lifter and the lifter would rise, only the cam would wear, that doesnt explain why they tick. Nothing about a soft cam would cause hemi tick.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Yeah, oil pressure isn't that helpful because of where it is measured in the engine. If the oil galley / return from the valve train is too small and restrictive to bleed enough oil down to the lifter roller and needle bearing, oil pressure isn't gonna help that being a gravity feed supply.

I also doubt the cam profiles are too aggressive for the valve train, or all the lifters would fail close to the same time, on most all engines

The only thing that explains it to me is marginal lifter lubrication - note I did not say "NO" lubrication. Having to add an EP additive (200ppm min. MoDTC) is a band aid to me because other roller lifter engines do not need it. At least that we know of that fail to the extent Hemi lifters do. The very fact that some Hemi engines develop the tick at all conditions and some do not is indicative of an operational problem, all other conditions being equal (same oils, same OCI's, no excess idling, etc.). And that Red Line has quieted ticks is an extremely strong indicator of a marginal lubrication problem.

Don't get me wrong - I am glad folks have figured out a strategy to greatly improve the situation (Red Line, syn filters, low OCI, etc.), but it is still a band aid compared to the general population of roller lifter engines in the market place.

 

[David_Jacobs]

I want to trial something next summer. My 1500 5.7 ram has a mild cam and MDS delete, but still the MDS activating valves installed. I plan on putting blank plugs in place of the MDS valves in the hope that the high pressure oil pressurizing against solid lifters lubricates the lifters and trickles down to the rollers. It’s just an idea but I couldn’t see the harm in trying this.

 

[Wild one]

I want to trial something next summer. My 1500 5.7 ram has a mild cam and MDS delete, but still the MDS activating valves installed. I plan on putting blank plugs in place of the MDS valves in the hope that the high pressure oil pressurizing against solid lifters lubricates the lifters and trickles down to the rollers. It’s just an idea but I couldn’t see the harm in trying this.

I've been running the high dollar billet block off plugs from Stanke for several years in my truck,with my 1.5HL Greene cam and Mopars non-mds lifters (aka:Hellcat lifters),but the plastic ones from Mopar are every bit as good,and are far cheaper,especially in Canada.My truck is also running Trend pushrods and Mopars rocker arm braces,i've never had any valvetrain issues running Redline 5W-30 and i beat the **** out of my truck with 6500/6600 rpm shifts.Truck has 500 dragstrip passes under it's belt at Castrol,lol.

 

[2012RAM1500RT]

I've been running the high dollar billet block off plugs from Stanke for several years in my truck,with my 1.5HL Greene cam and Mopars non-mds lifters (aka:Hellcat lifters),but the plastic ones from Mopar are every bit as good,and are far cheaper,especially in Canada.My truck is also running Trend pushrods and Mopars rocker arm braces,i've never had any valvetrain issues running Redline 5W-30 and i beat the **** out of my truck with 6500/6600 rpm shifts.Truck has 500 dragstrip passes under it's belt at Castrol,lol.

This is what I like to hear and listen to, the ones that's done it, not the ones that's heard something or going to do it. Experience instead of hear say! That's impressive, 500 passes with those shift points and still together!

 

[Wild one]

This is what I like to hear and listen to, the ones that's done it, not the ones that's heard something or going to do it. Experience instead of hear say! That's impressive, 500 passes with those shift points and still together!

The engines been bulletproof,but i'm on the 3rd diff and 2nd 8speed though,lol.The dealer rebuilt the rear diff twice under warrenty,before they told me,they might have a hard time pushing a third rebuild through,even though they knew the truck lives at the track.After the 2nd rebuild,i hunted up another complete diff to weld my Illicit relocation brackets to,and install 3.55's and a true trac,and put my original rebuilt 3.21 rear diff and front diff in storage.The original front and rear diffs will go back under the truck whenever i decide to get rid of it,and i'll sell the rear diff with the true trac and brackets along with a low milege matching 3.55 front diff to recoup some of my costs.The tranny was more tune related,as that was back before anybody knew how to tune the 8 speeds,and we kept leaning on the tranny,till it decided it'd had enough and went south at the track one night,truck did make the 155 mile drive home that night,but it had no 6th/7th or 8th gears left,lol.That's why i have the factory ZF instructions on how to check the fluid level in the 8speeds.The transmissions aren't cheap,so that was an expensive way to get the instructions,especially in Canada,lol

 

[2012RAM1500RT]

The engines been bulletproof,but i'm on the 3rd diff and 2nd 8speed though,lol.The dealer rebuilt the rear diff twice under warrenty,before they told me,they might have a hard time pushing a third rebuild through,even though they knew the truck lives at the track.After the 2nd rebuild,i hunted up another complete diff to weld my Illicit relocation brackets to,and install 3.55's and a true trac,and put my original rebuilt 3.21 rear diff and front diff in storage.The original front and rear diffs will go back under the truck whenever i decide to get rid of it,and i'll sell the rear diff with the true trac and brackets along with a low milege matching 3.55 front diff to recoup some of my costs.The tranny was more tune related,as that was back before anybody knew how to tune the 8 speeds,and we kept leaning on the tranny,till it decided it'd had enough and went south at the track one night,truck did make the 155 mile drive home that night,but it had no 6th/7th or 8th gears left,lol.That's why i have the factory ZF instructions on how to check the fluid level in the 8speeds.The transmissions aren't cheap,so that was an expensive way to get the instructions,especially in Canada,lol

I hear you. For me an automatic has always been the weak link in my vehicles. I've never lost an engine, can't say that about an automatic. The reason I'm a manual transmission guy, what I've put them through the years and never lost one of them, once again why I go with experience and not hear say!

 

[David Skinner]

Check out this guy's blog. Very well documented testing. He's a bit arrogant but very interesting test results:

Search Results for “diesel” – 540 RAT – Tech Facts, NOT Myths

540ratblog.wordpress.com

 

[Burla]

Who's tests are better, ram forum members real life testing in the 5.7, or rat guys blog? Hemi tick has created a situation where an oils formula can either pass or fail, either it kills the tick or it doesn't. Some of these ticks cannot be silenced with a lubrication strategy, but nearly 80% of them can be silenced just by using a different oil. If someone tells me to use an oil that makes my truck tick when the oil I am using has it butter smooth because rat boy says it is a better choice, then I say go pound sand. See redline and lubegard hemi tick thread with public polling and a decade of ram forum members testing. Similar science on both products, similar results as well.

 

[ramffml]

It's not even "just" the tick; Redline has made my entire engine sound quieter both while idling and under load, there is just less "mechanical chatter" for lack of a better term.

 

[2012RAM1500RT]

Who's tests are better, ram forum members real life testing in the 5.7, or rat guys blog? Hemi tick has created a situation where an oils formula can either pass or fail, either it kills the tick or it doesn't. Some of these ticks cannot be silenced with a lubrication strategy, but nearly 80% of them can be silenced just by using a different oil. If someone tells me to use an oil that makes my truck tick when the oil I am using has it butter smooth because rat boy says it is a better choice, then I say go pound sand. See redline and lubegard hemi tick thread with public polling and a decade of ram forum members testing. Similar science on both products, similar results as well.

I'm with you. I go with experience, don't care about science, a blog or anything else. If something works for me I'm stubborn, nothing will change my mine. I don't have the tick so far but you can bet if I do I'll be trying the Redline myself!