When Not to Use Redline Thread

[bchap05]

I've ran RL 5w30 since the first oil change at 4k or so. Don't care if its 50 bucks more twice a year. No issues as of yet but only 45k.

 

[John Schmidt]

I have a 2019 5th gen, I always run with MDS disabled (gear limiter), its the first thing I do after getting into drive. I may have driven about 2 hours total with MDS active so far on the entire life of the engine and I'm at 50,000 KM's right now.

Hi. I had the same thing (cold start noise) with my 2020. AND, I was doing the same thing with MDS - I just hate the sound, etc. BUT, and a big BUT here ... what I found is that if I drive for at least 10 minutes and let the darn truck turn on MDS for a few of those 10 minutes, the next start is QUIET, TICKLESS, MUSIC to my ears! I've been doing this now for two months and can go as long as 4 days in between starts with NO startup tick. Prior (when I was disabling MDS - just like you), anytime I let the truck sit for 24 hours or so, I'd have a few seconds of ticking. You should give it a shot. Just put up with the vacuum cleaner nosie, and let it go into MDS as often as possible, and see what it does for you. I hated the noise so much that I was thinking about selling it. Now I love my truck. I'll look forward to hearing from you.

 

[ramffml]

Part of the problem with these discussions is that the hemi makes so many lovely ticking noises it's hard to identify which one we're talking about.

#1: If you turn it on cold, get a really bad/noticable noise for about 3 seconds and then suddenly it instantly goes away, thats lifter tick, but not the kind to worry about. The lifters aren't damaged, it's just a bad drain back valve in the oil filter or for some reason the oil has drained from the lifters and it takes a few seconds on a cold start to get back there. I think that's the tick you're talking about. I think in my case letting it idle too long (minutes) before turning it off might exacerbate the problem.

#2: The "hemi tick" as most people refer to it, is actually caused by physically damaged lifters/cam. It's there on idle even when the truck is warm. It's not a 2 or 3 second noise and then gone, it's there permanently even when warm. Every time you use your truck, that tick will be there, whereas the tick you're talking about only shows up "randomly" or once in a while, and only on a cold start.

#3: There is also "injector tick", which is present on all hemis on every cold start it's the loudest but seems to get softer as the engine warms up, it's never completely gone. I've watched so many youtube reviews/videos and every hemi has that very slight but high pitched/squealing noise. It's not a mechanical problem or anything to worry about, it's just how they are. It seems to be more noticable on the passenger side of the engine.

#4: Then there is "piston slap" on a very cold start, think way way below freezing. This is less of a tick, and more of a clacking or knocking.

In any case, I'm not willing to use MDS to make my engine slightly quieter on a cold start, the 2 noises I'm trying to "fix" are #3 and possibly #4. I believe you are referring to #1 but I have only noticed that like 5 times over 2.5 years of ownership, not worth using MDS even if that fixes it. I appreciate the tip and I might try it some day if it gets worse, but since it happens so infrequently the juice isn't worth the squeeze for me.

 

[Burla]

Whatever works for each owner is what you should do imo. I think start up tick is bad personally, I think anyone getting it should try some things to stop it.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Hi. I had the same thing (cold start noise) with my 2020. AND, I was doing the same thing with MDS - I just hate the sound, etc. BUT, and a big BUT here ... what I found is that if I drive for at least 10 minutes and let the darn truck turn on MDS for a few of those 10 minutes, the next start is QUIET, TICKLESS, MUSIC to my ears! I've been doing this now for two months and can go as long as 4 days in between starts with NO startup tick. Prior (when I was disabling MDS - just like you), anytime I let the truck sit for 24 hours or so, I'd have a few seconds of ticking. You should give it a shot. Just put up with the vacuum cleaner nosie, and let it go into MDS as often as possible, and see what it does for you. I hated the noise so much that I was thinking about selling it. Now I love my truck. I'll look forward to hearing from you.

Another member reported this phenomena not too long ago. Knowing how the MDS system works, it seemed causative to getting more oil to the poorly-lubricated valve train. I won't go into the MDS system itself again, there are many posts and google info on it. The only thing I don't know about it is whether MDS ports oil to only half the cylinders? If so, is it only the MDS cylinders subject to lifter failure? I don't think so - I've read both MDS and non MDS cylinder lifters fail. Are two different lifter designs used - one for MDS cylinders and one for non MDS cylinders, and oil during MDS is ported to all of them? This would explain why the entire valve train is quieted when MDS is activated.

Anybody know the engine design for MDS?

 

[Burla]

@Hemi395 do you still have that mds lubricating youtube?

 

[Hemi395]

@Hemi395 do you still have that mds lubricating youtube?

You mean this video?

5.7 HEMI Lifter Failure Could this FIX the lifter issue FOREVER?

Hey guys, revisiting the 5.7 HEMI lifter failure video I made a couple months ago. I wanted to address many off the comments that I got from the last video, ...

youtu.be

 

[Burla]

You mean this video?

5.7 HEMI Lifter Failure Could this FIX the lifter issue FOREVER?

Hey guys, revisiting the 5.7 HEMI lifter failure video I made a couple months ago. I wanted to address many off the comments that I got from the last video, ...

youtu.be

Boom, @HEMIMANN you watch that from front to back without falling asleep, pretty thorough imo.

 

[Hemi395]

That video right there is why I turned on MDS again. I want pressurized oil getting to all my lifters at least some of the time…

 

[Dan Topp]

I am willing to bet I thrash my 8 hp70 as bad as any other FI ( blower) hemi and Amsoil’s tranny oil is just fine at 5 k on the change.But that said how about some other real world tests. Still use royal on my Z06 because it hasn’t failed me either.

 

[ramffml]

Guys that video from Reignighted is not his latest thoughts on the lifter failure.

His latest video he basically says it's probably failed camshaft hardening, and has nothing to do with MDS or lack of lubrication (he doesn't believe there is a lack of oiling). He says the oiling aspect has not changed since 20003 since these were designed and that the idea of crank not flinging enough oil is also incorrect due to that lack of change.

So... if you want to believe reignighted, then you can no longer use that video as proof since he has since changed/perfected his theories

 

[ramffml]

Found his latest video on hemi tick:

The END of the HEMI TICK?

The END of the HEMI TICK? As a former Chrysler technician I've worked on Hemi engines for over a decade and I've seen a lot of camshaft and lifter failures. ...

www.youtube.com

 

[ramffml]

That video right there is why I turned on MDS again. I want pressurized oil getting to all my lifters at least some of the time…

Turn it back off

If you can run your engine for 5 hours straight with MDS turned off, and have no lifter failures, I GUARANTEE you that oil is getting to those lifters in sufficent quantity. It's basic logic, without proper oiling you're going to lose your lifters far quicker than that.

Any of you guys every try to operate a drill press without oil/lube? A few seconds without oil there and you'll understand why we can be guaranteed that "lack of lubrication" is NOT the hemi's problem.

 

[Hemi395]

Turn it back off

If you can run your engine for 5 hours straight with MDS turned off, and have no lifter failures, I GUARANTEE you that oil is getting to those lifters in sufficent quantity. It's basic logic, without proper oiling you're going to lose your lifters far quicker than that.

Any of you guys every try to operate a drill press without oil/lube? A few seconds without oil there and you'll understand why we can be guaranteed that "lack of lubrication" is NOT the hemi's problem.

Thats very true lol.

Honestly I would love to, I HATE when my truck is in MDS.....

 

[Burla]

It's not cam hardening, or should I say lack of, you can't even think that is it when we have hemi tick as part of the deal. Obviously, there is an issue with the side force on lifters, this is the problem, it explains everything. It explains why EP additives have been proven to be effective (those only work on perpendicular force), it explains why the scuffing on lifter bore, it explains why the cam lobs are worn over time, it explains why needle bearings fail, it explains why they tick, and it explains why only some cam lobs are wiped. It is so easy to disprove the cam hardening theory it is hard to take serious.

It is not lack of lubrication per say, it is poorly formulated oils and a poorly designed lifter action. When you have banging metal, oil will not be enough, base oil will just be squeezed out.

 

[ramffml]

I don't think it's lack of cam hardening either, just pointing out that that's what reignited thinks it is now (so he changed his mind from that video someone linked to a few posts back).

 

[ramffml]

@Burla how does your explanation deal with the fact that the lifters haven't change since 2003 but only 2009+

It's not cam hardening, or should I say lack of, you can't even think that is it when we have hemi tick as part of the deal. Obviously, there is an issue with the side force on lifters, this is the problem, it explains everything. It explains why EP additives have been proven to be effective (those only work on perpendicular force), it explains why the scuffing on lifter bore, it explains why the cam lobs are worn over time, it explains why needle bearings fail, it explains why they tick, and it explains why only some cam lobs are wiped. It is so easy to disprove the cam hardening theory it is hard to take serious.

It is not lack of lubrication per say, it is poorly formulated oils and a poorly designed lifter action. When you have banging metal, oil will not be enough, base oil will just be squeezed out.

I'm definitely not saying you're wrong... but how does what you described above account for the fact that the vast majority of hemis never get the tick?

Perhaps the tick develops first for reasons other than "side force on lifters", and once you have the tick RL + additives can "help out" and bandaid the issue?

The theories that make most sense to me are the ones that can explain why some get it, and some don't. Poor quality control on cam and/or lifters would explain this. Also dirty oil for example; something gets into the needle bearings and gums them up, they stop moving, lifter starts to fail/tick; now we add RL to this and it masks the problem, holds it at bay etc.

 

[Hemi395]

They added vvt in 2009 which uses oil pressure to actuate. I can't find any info on this but that oil pressure had to come from somewhere and my guess is they stole some from the MDS/lifter galleys....

 

[ramffml]

Lack of oil pressure isn't the problem though, we all running at what, 50+ psi? So it's not being starved of oil.

And again, if it were a design flaw like that, ALL our hemis would be toast, but only a very small percentage is.

Has to be a different reason.

And also, I think we're not putting enough emphasis on the hints from FCA. They reworked the lifters, and that was their "fix". Would they spend all that money on that fix if they knew it wasn't the problem? Or would they spend that money and just "hope for the best"? That doesn't add up for me, for me all the signs point to faulty lifters, poor quality control. Keep in mind GM's v8's are suffering from the same problem (failing lifters) and their engines are completely different designs.

 

[Burla]

We had a forum member bring us the metallurgy report and theory from the engineer, this is what makes sense to me, I have no info on the why. We have people call it a bandaid because of feelings? I'm not at all criticizing, this would be my initial tendency as well. But we've had the worst hemi's (ones that tick) in a large group here, and none have needed lifters because they killed those ticks with a high additive high viscosity formula. If no redline any guess to how many of those would have failed already? More then zero would be my bet. You use a bandaid until a cut heals, well hemi tick never heals, so it is indeed a strategy to deal with it and so far knock wood it seams to be working.